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Mikko Kuusirati
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 Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | What? I've heard that the Earth was overall 7 degrees cooler? Evidence? |
You're probably thinking of the Little Ice Age.
What we're talking about here would have been the immediate lead-up to the Medieval Warm Period.
| Quote: | | Any finds showing that maces were common in the Viking and Vendel periods? |
No. Just nitpicking - the mace is, in fact, the oldest true weapon of war, as opposed to a repurposed tool or hunting implement. They first became prevalent in the early Stone Age when hafted tools were first invented, fell gradually out of fashion in the Bronze and early Iron Age, and came back into prevalence with the rising popularity of heavier armour during the High Middle Ages.
PS. Here's a previous thread on "viking maces".
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | | Philip Dyer wrote: | | What? I've heard that the Earth was overall 7 degrees cooler? Evidence? |
You're probably thinking of the Little Ice Age.
What we're talking about here would have been the immediate lead-up to the Medieval Warm Period.
| Quote: | | Any finds showing that maces were common in the Viking and Vendel periods? |
No. Just nitpicking - the mace is, in fact, the oldest true weapon of war, as opposed to a repurposed tool or hunting implement. They first became prevalent in the early Stone Age when hafted tools were first invented, fell gradually out of fashion in the Bronze and early Iron Age, and came back into prevalence with the rising popularity of heavier armour during the High Middle Ages.
PS. Here's a previous thread on "viking maces". |
Umm, you need to check your graph again, the medieval warm period was warmer than the early to mid 20th century but the (abiet debated) hockey stick graph clearly shows that the Earth is much warmer today than in the Medieval Warm period.
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M Boyd
Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your informative response and taking the time to write it. I was only going from what I'd read and am very happy to learn better. I'd have thought that armours made from leather or textiles would have been universally in use across nearly all cultures. But, until I learned better, I would have thought that archery, bows and arrows were a universal occurrence too. Bows were never developed by the indiginous peoples here in Australia. They relied on the spear and spear-thrower (woomera) and throwing sticks. They may have used the bow at some stage and abandoned it. We don't have the evidence, though.
Same situation here, right?
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | Umm, you need to check your graph again, the medieval warm period was warmer than the early to mid 20th century but the (abiet debated) hockey stick graph clearly shows that the Earth is much warmer today than in the Medieval Warm period. |
Globally, yes. Locally (nationally, continentally, that sort of "local") it's a whole lot more complicated.
PS. The actual point being, no, even very thick winter clothing would not have been analogous to textile armour. 
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Matt. It's like being sunburned. If someone even lightly touches you, you flinch, even though it normally wouldn't bother you. Apologies to Mr Boyd.
| Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | | Greenland actually used to be, well, green. |
Not really. Erik the Red allegedly stated that he called it "Greenland" to try and induce people to settle there. We know that the settlement had to import timber so it was likely pretty barren.
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Alex Cerioli
Location: Italia Joined: 26 Aug 2013
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| M Boyd wrote: | | People certainly are passionate around here! |
Yeah, I agree, I'm starting to think that this is not the right place for me.
However, I'll contribute to this topic with the only leather garnments I know of the Roman and later Migration Era that I know:
The leather leggings were used by Romans for riding and later adopted by many Germanic tribes, before somebody pops up and become confrontative I suggest to read "Historia Longobardorum" written by Paul the Deacon.
| Philip Dyer wrote: |
The thing is that Europe is a huge penisula and rocky penisula don't tend themselves to huge ranges needed to support animals large enough to make large thick hides off leather to cover your body in, it's come to no surprise that the huge Western comsumption of beef as a daily item instead of a food item indicating didn't start until European involvement in the America's were land was more plentiful. |
I have no other information regarding leather clothes on that era but these leggings were made of STIFF leather, and to work on the field they had a large amount of these animals:
I'm pretty sure the Roman could make an armour out of the hide of such an animal...oh yes it's the mythological lorica muscolata! 
| Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | | Philip Dyer wrote: | | What? I've heard that the Earth was overall 7 degrees cooler? Evidence? |
You're probably thinking of the Little Ice Age.
What we're talking about here would have been the immediate lead-up to the Medieval Warm Period.
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Just to nitpick, the Vendel/Carolingian era was BEFORE the Medieval warm period...as a matter of fact one of the explanation of the exodus of popolations like the Goths, the Vandals, the Langobards etc.. from Scandinavia was of course harsh climate.
"Their pacts are their swords, their favour a punishment"
Pope Gregory on the Longobards.
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex Cerioli wrote: | | M Boyd wrote: | | People certainly are passionate around here! |
Yeah, I agree, I'm starting to think that this is not the right place for me. |
We're not trying to scare anyone off! If there is any new *evidence* to be presented, we'd love to see it. But all the speculation and baseless assumptions have already been tried, in those earlier discussions.
| Quote: | However, I'll contribute to this topic with the only leather garnments I know of the Roman and later Migration Era that I know:
....
The leather leggings were used by Romans for riding and later adopted by many Germanic tribes, before somebody pops up and become confrontative I suggest to read "Historia Longobardorum" written by Paul the Deacon.
I have no other information regarding leather clothes on that era but these leggings were made of STIFF leather |
Not trying to be confrontational--I'd love to see the full quote from Paul the Deacon! Is he a later source? I don't remember his name, but I definitely don't know the later Roman-era sources very well. I'm curious if he's describing leggings or *trousers*--we know Roman cavalry earlier in the Empire wore Celtic-style trousers, but I don't think the material is known so we tend to assume wool. But leather is an option. If *stiff* leather is specified, cool, though in that case I'd expect it was a reference to some kind of gaiters for the lower leg, not trousers. But please do share the citation!
There are certainly other references to leather and hide clothing in the Roman era, so this isn't really earth-shaking. Leather riding trousers keep you from getting chafed by the horse! Not sure what bearing it has on Migration-era gambesons or leather armor.
Not sure what the photo of Renn Faire fantasy vambraces is supposed to mean, either?
Matthew
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Alex Cerioli
Location: Italia Joined: 26 Aug 2013
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Ok bored enough.
I kindly ask the moderators to deactivate my profile and delete all my posts, these discussions are getting too ridicoulus for my taste and patience.
"Their pacts are their swords, their favour a punishment"
Pope Gregory on the Longobards.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex Cerioli wrote: | Ok bored enough.
I kindly ask the moderators to deactivate my profile and delete all my posts, these discussions are getting too ridicoulus for my taste and patience. |
We don't do that. Deleting your posts leaves replies to your posts orphaned and out of context; so we won't do that.
If you're not happy with discussions here, we hope you find a place on the internet that scratches your itch(es). You're welcome back any time if you change your mind; we won't mess with your profile.
Please don't think that some posters and/or posts are reflective of the site as a whole. Some people are very passionate about certain topics, especially topics that have been discussed numerous times in 10 years here (or elsewhere) or topics they have spent a great deal of time researching. Some people are very blunt and matter of fact and it can be off-putting to some. Other people ask genuine questions out of a desire to learn and they shouldn't be belittled.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 31 Aug, 2013 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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I've just gone through the entire text of Historia Langobardorum and pulled these out:
Ch II - describes an imprisoned holy man bound in chains and clad in a goat's skin
Ch V - the Scritobini wear a knee-length coat made from stag hide.
Ch XXIV - the Longobards are mocked because they "wear white bandages from their calves down"
Ch XXXV - Aripert wore "mean garments and those made of skins" in the presence of foreign dignitaries.
Ch XXXVII - Cagan was in "full armour" but there is no mention of what armour it was.
Ch XXXVIII - Rothari concealed some kind of armour under his clothing.
Ch XL - Seno asks the king for a suit of armour. The king later hands over his armour, helmet, and greaves, but there is no mention of what sort of armour it is.
Ch LI - Godepert wore some kind of armour under his clothing.
Ch LVI - Berto attacked Ratchis in "full armour" but no mention of what sort of armour.
So it has a few mentions of clothing made from animal skins but I get the impression that it was only worn by the poorest folk. I might have missed it but I could find nothing about leather armour and nothing about leather leg guards. I'm guessing that Alex is talking about the "white bandages" in Ch 24 but there is nothing to suggest that they were made of leather. However, I used an English translation (William Dudley Foulke, 1907) and haven't seen the original latin.
http://www.thule-italia.org/Nordica/Paul%20th...BEN%5D.pdf
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sun 01 Sep, 2013 12:42 am Post subject: |
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I may well be wrong about the climate thing.
But still! Even the furriest winter coat would not be equivalent to a padded gambeson.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Mon 02 Sep, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Cerioli wrote: | | M Boyd wrote: | | People certainly are passionate around here! |
Yeah, I agree, I'm starting to think that this is not the right place for me.
However, I'll contribute to this topic with the only leather garnments I know of the Roman and later Migration Era that I know:
The leather leggings were used by Romans for riding and later adopted by many Germanic tribes, before somebody pops up and become confrontative I suggest to read "Historia Longobardorum" written by Paul the Deacon.
| Philip Dyer wrote: |
The thing is that Europe is a huge penisula and rocky penisula don't tend themselves to huge ranges needed to support animals large enough to make large thick hides off leather to cover your body in, it's come to no surprise that the huge Western comsumption of beef as a daily item instead of a food item indicating didn't start until European involvement in the America's were land was more plentiful. |
I have no other information regarding leather clothes on that era but these leggings were made of STIFF leather, and to work on the field they had a large amount of these animals:
I'm pretty sure the Roman could make an armour out of the hide of such an animal...oh yes it's the mythological lorica muscolata!
| Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | | Philip Dyer wrote: | | What? I've heard that the Earth was overall 7 degrees cooler? Evidence? |
You're probably thinking of the Little Ice Age.
What we're talking about here would have been the immediate lead-up to the Medieval Warm Period.
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Just to nitpick, the Vendel/Carolingian era was BEFORE the Medieval warm period...as a matter of fact one of the explanation of the exodus of popolations like the Goths, the Vandals, the Langobards etc.. from Scandinavia was of course harsh climate. |
Honestly comparing the Roman Empire which had vast more expanses of well and land to draw from, parts to northern Africa and the Mideast to draw weatlh and resources to harsh climate Vendel period Scandinavia is very disingenious. Also, even though they existed, I don't they had as much large game animals like in Argentina,Brazil, Midwest usa that they could afford to do the very risky notion of butchering either own of there serf's tractor in order to make armor out of it.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 02 Sep, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex Cerioli wrote: | Ok bored enough.
I kindly ask the moderators to deactivate my profile and delete all my posts, these discussions are getting too ridicoulus for my taste and patience. |
This confuses me. I've watched this topic closely. I wish some of the members here would present information better, but honestly, challenging one another's information and and opinions is the only road to collaborative learning. Asking for additional information, sources, and references is not to be taken as an offense, but a means by which we are able to get our point across and land on something factual.
You mentioned in another post of yours that others are getting confrontational. I don't read it that way. I would interpret that word, confrontational, as being a personal attack, whereas I see what is happening here as challenge of ideas and information. I would hope that most members of this site would understand that such an exchange is encouraged on this site, in so long as there isn't personal attacks attached. In other words, I want this exact thing to happen here, but the manner in which it is done is of vital importance.
I'm not happy with the manner in which it has been done here and I'll add another post about it in a minute.
| M Boyd wrote: | | People certainly are passionate around here! |
Thank goodness for that. It's exactly what I want here.
Now, I know you're inferring something completely different with your comment. In some ways, I agree with you, but let's not confuse people's poor communication skills with passion. Passion is to be encouraged.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 02 Sep, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Now an administrative notice to all:
I ask that everyone here present their informational challenges carefully without belittling others, acting bored and annoyed at such questions, or insinuating that others "just don't get it." The fact is, many of us don't get it and that's why we are here: to learn.
If anyone is unable to understand this and feels so frustrated by those of us with a lack of understanding of a subject, I suggest you constructively add to the topic in the role as an educator. If you can't do this, sit on the sidelines and don't participate.
Being an educator requires patience and a desire to make a positive impact. To get that result, one must do so without making the audience feel stupid or as though they are a bother. Being a poor educator who alienates an audience is worse than ignoring ignorance, as it actually actively pushes people away and creates a resentment to learning. Shame on those who do this.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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M Boyd
Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Tue 03 Sep, 2013 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Apologies to Mr Boyd. |
No problems, mate.
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Eric Rosenlof
Location: OR, USA Joined: 29 Aug 2013
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue 03 Sep, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Wow! Thanks for the responses, gentlemen! Sorry to not get back at this sooner, but I went out of town for a few days soon after posting, and this is the first chance I've had to check back. Dan, I checked out the other links about Vendel period, thanks. I'd read some of them already, but a few were new to me. I thank everyone for their input on this. I'm satisfied with using a wool tunic under mail; I just wanted to get some more info on the nature of said tunics, whether or not they were made for the express purpose of being worn under armor, or differentiated somehow from everyday clothing. I do get the impression that a tunic was a tunic, though trying to figure out what was in the minds of the warriors at the time is an exercise in futility (but fun!).
I'm aware that the "leather armor" concept (with reference to the Vendel/Merovingian period) is in the realm of horned helmets and war-skirts. One of the things I love about these forums is seeing the various iterations of the threads (as in discussions, not textiles  )
Have a good one!
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 05 Sep, 2013 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | I'm guessing that Alex is talking about the "white bandages" in Ch 24 but there is nothing to suggest that they were made of leather. However, I used an English translation (William Dudley Foulke, 1907) and haven't seen the original latin. |
Interesting. I'll see if I can match it with the original Latin; I suspect it's going to be something like the case of the Welsh "loricis minoribus" all over again, but who knows if we might really find something new this time.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 15 May, 2015 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | I'm guessing that Alex is talking about the "white bandages" in Ch 24 but there is nothing to suggest that they were made of leather. However, I used an English translation (William Dudley Foulke, 1907) and haven't seen the original latin. |
Apologies for the thread necro but I want to add this image from the Golden Psalter. It appears to show the white leggings described in Chapter 24 of the above text. Since the Langobards were mocked for wearing those leggings it seems reasonable to conclude that other cultures in the region didn't wear them. So, if this is the case, then it would seem that this casualty is a Langobard and that others in the illustration are not.
 Attachment: 22.65 KB
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Fri 15 May, 2015 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | The word is hreinbjálfa - a reindeer fur coat. It is clothing, not armour. I've already posted several links where this exact subject is discussed. |
A somewhat inattentive 30th century historian might figure the Victorian England was so violent that ladies started wearing whalebone corselets for protection...
I can already imagine weapons being tested on corset reproductions. 
Language is such a beautiful thing isn't it?
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