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Eric S
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 Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Kai Lawson wrote: | | Are there many other extant mail examples that display a possible 'scabbard hole,' as can be inferred from some of the period art? |
I have seen several drawings/paintings etc showing the same thing but there are just not many existing hauberks from this period and of the ones that do exist most of the images I have seen are of no real use.
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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In that last picture, it looks like the scabbard is worn on a baldric/belt over the shoulder, with the scabbard thrust through the mail (to make it move less?), rather than some sort of suspension below the mail. Like a scabbard pocket, if you will.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that's the guige for the shield on his back rather than a baldric.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | I wonder if the hauberk isn't displayed inside out, something that's been known to occur in the best of exhibits. It would help explain why the rivets are practically invisible. |
Mart, here is a good example of what you just described, the wedge shaped rivet backs are clearly on the outside of this hauberk, it does give you a good view of the less often seen back side of the rivets.
European riveted mail bishops mantle (pellegrina di maglia anelli), detail view of the shoulder, 16th century, wedge rivets with bands of brass links, this hauberk is being displayed inside out as the wedge shaped rivets would normally not be seen on the outside, Museo delle Armi "Luigi Marzoli" (Brescia) Italy.
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David Butchee
Location: Houston Texas Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2014 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Has there ever been found a maille shirt where the rings on the sleeves lay the same way as the body? There seems to be much evidence via sculptures and drawings for this, but no surviving pieces that I know of.
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Kai Lawson wrote: | | In that last picture, it looks like the scabbard is worn on a baldric/belt over the shoulder, with the scabbard thrust through the mail (to make it move less?), rather than some sort of suspension below the mail. Like a scabbard pocket, if you will. |
That strap is the guige strap for the shield, not the scabbard.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 06 Feb, 2014 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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From the publication listed below from Erik Schmid's site there is a description of examined mail examples (Table I
Chain Mail Specimens Submitted)
| Quote: | "36.25.476 Shirt of mail. Persian, 18th Century
All riveted links (round wire) |
If Persian mail could be all riveted how would anyone differentiate between European all riveted mail and all riveted Persian mail.
NOVEMBER 10, 1958 MEMORANDUM NO. 924
EXAMINATION OF MAIL ARMOR LINKS FROM THE
METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART
J. R. Vilella
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_7.pdf
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 06 Feb, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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MET 36.25.476.
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/27751
Mail Shirt
Date: 17th–19th century
Culture: Tibetan, possibly Bhutanese or Nepalese
Medium: Iron, leather, textile
Dimensions: Weight, 18 lb. 14 oz. (8561.6 g)
Classification: Mail
Credit Line: Bequest of George C. Stone, 1935
Accession Number: 36.25.476
Not a good enough set of photos to see any real details of the riveting.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 08 Feb, 2014 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | MET 36.25.476.
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/27751
Mail Shirt
Date: 17th–19th century
Culture: Tibetan, possibly Bhutanese or Nepalese
Medium: Iron, leather, textile
Dimensions: Weight, 18 lb. 14 oz. (8561.6 g)
Classification: Mail
Credit Line: Bequest of George C. Stone, 1935
Accession Number: 36.25.476
Not a good enough set of photos to see any real details of the riveting. |
There is one privately owned example of a similar Tibetan armor that I know of, I have asked the owner for some detailed pictures of the mail or at least a description as to if it is all riveted or demi riveted.
Met Tibetan armor.
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D. S. Smith
Location: Central CA Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, I was just checking out the link on page 1 of this thread for the first time:
http://www.pinterest.com/samuraiantiques/european-mail-armor/
...and I am shocked at how much the modern flat ring riveted mail reproductions look like the 15th and 16th century originals! 
I was under the impression that no modern mail except for custom armor came anywhere close to what the originals looked like but boy, was I wrong. I'm not saying they're identical, but close enough to look very realistic.
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, at least some of the flat ring mass produced repros have gotten closer than it usually gets credit for though there are still details to improve of course.
I just wish the round riveted ones would get the same treatment, but I suspect from my own experience that the round rivet type mailles were and still are more work intensive to make and less easily adapted to modern methods of mass production.
I.e. I have to first press the rivet to stay in place, then drop forge the head and top to get the historical watershed "hill with cap" shape never seen on any mass marketed dome rivet mailles and very few of the custom ones.
This means we get these shortcuts where the riveting is double-headed or even looks like fish-hooks and the round rings are stamped too thin or too sharply at the overlap. The companies making these mailles aren't necessarily unaware of how it should really look but may not be able to figure out how to get that look and still have a product with a price they can sell at.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Johan Gemvik wrote: | Yes, at least some of the flat ring mass produced repros have gotten closer than it usually gets credit for though there are still details to improve of course.
I just wish the round riveted ones would get the same treatment, but I suspect from my own experience that the round rivet type mailles were and still are more work intensive to make and less easily adapted to modern methods of mass production.
I.e. I have to first press the rivet to stay in place, then drop forge the head and top to get the historical watershed "hill with cap" shape never seen on any mass marketed dome rivet mailles and very few of the custom ones.
This means we get these shortcuts where the riveting is double-headed or even looks like fish-hooks and the round rings are stamped too thin or too sharply at the overlap. The companies making these mailles aren't necessarily unaware of how it should really look but may not be able to figure out how to get that look and still have a product with a price they can sell at. |
Sad, because of this , it's more practical to be for many people to double anachronistic because of tearing issues on skin and clothing of round chain within most people price points than not.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 01 Mar, 2014 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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A few types of non European / Japanese mail armors that I can not find a detailed image of or any decent description.
Mongolian hauberk, 13th-14th century, National Museum of Mongolia.
Chinese hauberk, similar the the Japanese style.
Korean hauberk, Joseon Dynasty.
Korean mail and plate shirt.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 03 Mar, 2014 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a form of Japanese mail not seen before, round links that appear to be wrapped with wire, a version of it is illustrated in a book by Japanese armor expert and author Dr. Sasama Yoshihiko "An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Japanese Arms and Armour". (#9), riveted mail is illustrated as well (#10) along with another unknown type of twisted link mail (#12).
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| D. S. Smith wrote: | Wow, I was just checking out the link on page 1 of this thread for the first time:
http://www.pinterest.com/samuraiantiques/european-mail-armor/
...and I am shocked at how much the modern flat ring riveted mail reproductions look like the 15th and 16th century originals!
I was under the impression that no modern mail except for custom armor came anywhere close to what the originals looked like but boy, was I wrong. I'm not saying they're identical, but close enough to look very realistic. |
D. S.
I am shocked by how much they do not look like the original stuff.
We will probably have to agree to disagree on this.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently all you have to do to make an accurate mail replica is to use flat links and some kind of rivet.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| D. S. Smith wrote: | Wow, I was just checking out the link on page 1 of this thread for the first time:
http://www.pinterest.com/samuraiantiques/european-mail-armor/
...and I am shocked at how much the modern flat ring riveted mail reproductions look like the 15th and 16th century originals!
I was under the impression that no modern mail except for custom armor came anywhere close to what the originals looked like but boy, was I wrong. I'm not saying they're identical, but close enough to look very realistic. |
Can you post an image or link to an image of a modern reproduction which you feel comes close to imitating authentic mail so we can compare?
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Mart Shearer
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 11 Mar, 2014 11:54 am Post subject: All riveted Indo-Persian mail |
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I recently said that I had not seen any verifiable all riveted Indo-Persian mail....and then I find this, it has an inward facing point which means that it is not European riveted mail and there are no solid links which is not normally found on Indo-Persian mail, the auction house that sold it (hermann-historica) stated in the description that it was "Composed of welded rings" but that is obviously not true.
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm63...at63_a.txt
| Quote: | | Ottoman zirah (mail shirt), detail view, 17th century, composed entirely of riveted rings with an inward facing point, elbow-length sleeves, front and back vents. Minor repairs with another type of riveted rings from the time of use. The back hem with cast arsenal mark of brass with Arabic characters. Length 80 cm. |
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Julio Junco
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| Posted: Wed 12 Mar, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: All riveted Indo-Persian mail |
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I think this mail is welded and riveted rings.
Julio
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This is a 
