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Lafayette C Curtis
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 Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: | Okay, so this is what i got so far,
I guess the best way to start would be from the head down. |
I'd say it's better to start from the inside out instead. The soft kit -- the garments you wear underneath all that armour -- is the thing most people tend to get wrong, and the one that would have the greatest impact upon the final silhouette and look of your impression. This is pretty ironic since the soft kit is usually the cheapest part of the whole impression and improving it requires less expenditure than buying a new armour or retailoring an old one.
A really quick list of the soft kit components would consist of:
- A roughly knee-length tunic, perhaps longer (down to about mid-calf) if that's what you prefer. If you're looking for commercial models, I'd suggest Historic Enterprises' offerings here or here. However, I also agree with Leo's comment that the early and high medieval T-tunic isn't that complicated, and if you're in a position to expend time and effort rather than money then I'd suggest that you learn to make one yourself. You'll probably require two or three tunics to get the basics right, but that's not such a big problem if you have friends or relatives who might want to dress up together with -- the older tunics would make handy loaner pieces. Try this guide if you want to go down the DIY route.
- An undertunic -- not always necessary since (I think) we have evidence of outer tunics worn both with and without undertunics, and there might be a good reason not to add the undertunic's extra layer in particularly hot-and-humid conditions. In any case, you might want to make your first tunic or two out of undyed material so that it can be worn as an undertunic should you need or want to do so.
- Braies. This is the part other people aren't really supposed to see, so you might be able to fib it off with loose drawstring trousers cut off at the knee or even modern shorts. But real braies, properly constructed, can be more comfortable under the hose. HE also has some good braies if you prefer to buy some, while there are a couple of articles you'd want to check if you want to make them yourself: http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/...sindex.htm and http://hibernaatio.blogspot.com/2014/04/nain-...tteen.html
- Hose. This is usually the hardest part for modern men since they feel like they'd look ridiculous in "tights," but 12th/early 13th-century hose seem to have been slightly less close-fitting than they'd later become in the 14th and 15th centuries, and more importantly you'd look a great deal less ridiculous in a full tunic-and-hose outfit than you think. Check Marc Carlson's page on extant examples of hose if you want to see what their construction is like; knowing this would be quite useful regardless of whether you'll eventually choose to make or buy.
- Shoes - probably the most expensive, since the right kind of leather (high-quality vegetable-tanned) isn't cheap even if you decide to make them yourself, and they require more practice to make correctly (so you'll have to either go through more leather as you go through the trial-and-error process of learning to make them yourself, or pay more for the skills of craftsmen/women who can make good historically-accurate shoes).
- Some sort of suitable headwear. Try http://larsdatter.com/coifs.htm and http://larsdatter.com/hoods.htm for some sense of what it'd look like.
If you decide to get some sort of arming garment (gambeson, aketon, whatever you call it) in preparation for getting your mail-based armour, you probably should look for quilted cloth rather than leather since there's little evidence that leather was used as armour in the Crusades. It was quite common for shoes, pouches/bags, belts, and straps (including on armour), but entire garments made of leather would have been quite rare and expensive -- and, if I'm not mistaken, more likely to be found among the Turks and Saracens than among the Crusaders. Try Alexi Goranov's article on this site for a good starting point.
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi everyone,
I just wanted to say thanks to all the contributors to this thread. While I am not working on a knight of this time period (yet  ) the resources, great information, and friendly, supportive words make this a great example of why I really enjoy this forum. And there are very good general tips towards assembling a kit from any time period. Kudos also to Roberto for coming to the right place to get started.
That's all, just a note of appreciation for the good posts above.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: |
So would the typical white shield with the red cross be accurate but rare?
Or just innacurate? |
The crusaders may have had shields like this, although during the Third Crusade, I recall the crusaders sewed only small crosses onto their surcoats; I am not sure about the size of crosses on shields. As for the Templars, it seems they might have used any number of designs. The design shown in Mart's image of black above white (to use non-heraldic terms) might be appropriate- we don't know if it was used during the Third Crusade or not. Really, most of the heraldic designs seen post 1160 or so would look just fine on your shield. Search Manuscript Miniatures. |
I think for the shield i am going to go with a small cross like the one depicted here..
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4528/11333/
It pleases me aesthetically while still being accurate! haha
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Leo Rousseau wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: | | Leo Rousseau wrote: | | What you should really pay attention to is, what will you wear under the mail. You need to study text and miniatures to know what your civilian clothes will look like, which fabric to use, which colors are ok and which are not. You also need to figure what will be the type of your gambeson (the padded garment you wear under the mail). The most important factor is the wealth of the character you are portraying, because it will have a huge influence on what you will be able to wear. |
So something i've been asking, that has not been answered yet, is about the chainmail at the feet? Would they ear something under the chain mail like boots or shoes?
Because it is clear that it anything on top of the mail was not of the time period.
The character i plan to portray is a high ranking Templar Knight. Preferably of the time of Richard the Lion heart and the third crusade against Saladin. |
Hi,
Sorry for the late reply. But obviously you have to wear some shoes underneath. If yo need some pointers about which type, let me know and I will give you some material.
As for the clothing, most of what you find already made is either inaccurate or don't fit well (and often both), but it is not that hard to do it yourself. About medieval sewing techniques and patterns a good starting point is the book Medieval Tailor Assistant ( http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Tailors-Assist...0896762394 ) .
For the Gambeson, the only representation I know of in this time frame is in a manuscript from France (1200) : http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscr.../576-1.jpg
but I didn't made huge researches about this period. |
"
Help on the shoes would be greatly appreciated!
Specially if theyre crafted as i am too intimidated to do it my self. Thank you!
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | It appears we have at least two images from the late 12th to early 13th century of shields with small crosses, rather than larger ones, and I suspect there may be other images that I have forgotten or have not seen as well. A smaller cross seems to be more appropriate. |
What other spear would you recommend for 12th century?
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:34 am Post subject: |
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If Roberto wants to portray a Templar, then his clothing would be issued by the chapter house.
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/religion/monastic/t_rule.html
| Quote: | On the Brothers' Dress
17. We command that all the brothers' habits should always be of one colour, that is white or black or brown. And we grant to all knight brothers in winter and in summer if possible, white cloaks; and no-one who does not belong to the aforementioned Knights of Christ is allowed to have a white cloak, so that those who have abandoned the life of darkness will recognise each other as being reconciled to their creator by the sign of the white habits: which signifies purity and complete chastity. Chastity is certitude of heart and healthiness of body. For if any brother does not take the vow of chastity he cannot come to eternal rest nor see God, by the promise of the apostle who said: Pacem sectamini cum omnibus et castimoniam sine qua nemo Deum videbit. That is to say: 'Strive to bring peace to all, keep chaste, without which no-one can see God.'
18. But these robes should be without any finery and without any show of pride. And so we ordain that no brother will have a piece of fur on his clothes, nor anything else which belongs to the usages of the body, not even a blanket unless it is of lamb's wool or sheep's wool. We command all to have the same, so that each can dress and undress, and put on and take off his boots easily. And the Draper or the one who is in his place should studiously reflect and take care to have the reward of God in all the above-mentioned things, so that the eyes of the envious and evil-tongued cannot observe that the robes are too long or too short; but he should distribute them so that they fit those who must wear them, according to the size of each one.
19. And if any brother out of a feeling of pride or arrogance wishes to have as his due a better and finer habit, let him be given the worst. And those who receive new robes must immediately return the old ones, to be given to the squires and sergeants and often to the poor, according to what seems good to the one who holds that office.
On Shirts
20. Among the other things, we mercifully rule that, because of the great intensity of the heat which exists in the East, from Easter to All Saints, through compassion and in no way as a right, a linen shirt shalt be given to any brother who wishes to wear it.
On Bed Linen
21. We command by common consent that each man shall have clothes and bed linen according to the discretion of the Master. It is our intention that apart from a mattress, one bolster and one blanket should be sufficient for each; and he who lacks one of these may have a rug, and he may use a linen blanket at all times, that is to say with a soft pile. And they will at all times sleep dressed in shirt and breeches and shoes and belts, and where they sleep shall be lit until morning. And the Draper should ensure that the brothers are so well tonsured that they may be examined from the front and from behind; and we command you to firmly adhere to this same conduct with respect to beards and moustaches, so that no excess may be noted on their bodies.
On Pointed Shoes' and Shoe-Laces
22. We prohibit pointed shoes and shoe-laces and forbid any brother to wear them; nor do we permit them to those who serve the house for a fixed term; rather we forbid them to have shoes with points or laces under any circumstances. For it is manifest and well known that these abominable things belong to pagans. Nor should they wear their hair or their habits too long. For those who serve the sovereign creator must of necessity be born within and without through the promise of God himself who said: Estote mundi quia ego mundus sum. That is to say: 'Be born as I am born.'
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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: | Okay, so this is what i got so far,
I guess the best way to start would be from the head down. |
I'd say it's better to start from the inside out instead. The soft kit -- the garments you wear underneath all that armour -- is the thing most people tend to get wrong, and the one that would have the greatest impact upon the final silhouette and look of your impression. This is pretty ironic since the soft kit is usually the cheapest part of the whole impression and improving it requires less expenditure than buying a new armour or retailoring an old one.
If you decide to get some sort of arming garment (gambeson, aketon, whatever you call it) in preparation for getting your mail-based armour, you probably should look for quilted cloth rather than leather since there's little evidence that leather was used as armour in the Crusades. It was quite common for shoes, pouches/bags, belts, and straps (including on armour), but entire garments made of leather would have been quite rare and expensive -- and, if I'm not mistaken, more likely to be found among the Turks and Saracens than among the Crusaders. Try Alexi Goranov's article on this site for a good starting point. |
This is all very helpful! thanks alot.
I am a bit intimidated to make anything myself, but I can try looking for pre made items, Theres some on here that seem doable though. I guess ill have to see as i go.
This seems more detailed than the actual armor haha!
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| J. Nicolaysen wrote: | Hi everyone,
I just wanted to say thanks to all the contributors to this thread. While I am not working on a knight of this time period (yet ) the resources, great information, and friendly, supportive words make this a great example of why I really enjoy this forum. And there are very good general tips towards assembling a kit from any time period. Kudos also to Roberto for coming to the right place to get started.
That's all, just a note of appreciation for the good posts above. |
I am very thankful for everyone here and the time dedicated to helping me out.
I am very amazed by how dedicated you all have been to make my lil project come true.
I cant be happier to have joined this community
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: | | Craig Peters wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: |
So would the typical white shield with the red cross be accurate but rare?
Or just innacurate? |
The crusaders may have had shields like this, although during the Third Crusade, I recall the crusaders sewed only small crosses onto their surcoats; I am not sure about the size of crosses on shields. As for the Templars, it seems they might have used any number of designs. The design shown in Mart's image of black above white (to use non-heraldic terms) might be appropriate- we don't know if it was used during the Third Crusade or not. Really, most of the heraldic designs seen post 1160 or so would look just fine on your shield. Search Manuscript Miniatures. |
I think for the shield i am going to go with a small cross like the one depicted here..
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4528/11333/
It pleases me aesthetically while still being accurate! haha |
Nothing wrong with that. Please be aware that this is a depiction of St. George, with St. Demetrius behind. The descriptions appear above the figures. The inspiration for St. George might have been a Templar, but his traditional arms are a red cross on white.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: | | Craig Peters wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: |
So would the typical white shield with the red cross be accurate but rare?
Or just innacurate? |
The crusaders may have had shields like this, although during the Third Crusade, I recall the crusaders sewed only small crosses onto their surcoats; I am not sure about the size of crosses on shields. As for the Templars, it seems they might have used any number of designs. The design shown in Mart's image of black above white (to use non-heraldic terms) might be appropriate- we don't know if it was used during the Third Crusade or not. Really, most of the heraldic designs seen post 1160 or so would look just fine on your shield. Search Manuscript Miniatures. |
I think for the shield i am going to go with a small cross like the one depicted here..
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4528/11333/
It pleases me aesthetically while still being accurate! haha |
Nothing wrong with that. Please be aware that this is a depiction of St. George, with St. Demetrius behind. The descriptions appear above the figures. The inspiration for St. George might have been a Templar, but his traditional arms are a red cross on white. |
You mentioned something about the colors and symbols being designated by the chapter house.
where can I find which chapter houses there were and their colors?
ive been unlucky so far.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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So thanks to all of you here, ive been getting closer and closer to what The ideal knight I want to build.
I was so clueless when I started this topic.
As most of you saw I was thinking the templar knight to look something like this,
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/085/2/...4tz5t0.jpg
Romanticized with plate and other inaccurate gear.
I also thought it was going to be easy, mail and plate with a shield and sword.
Thanks to you guys, i'm on the right track. ( i would like to think so)
Although i must admit i'm still confused, and probably wrong, about a lot of the details.
Though in my head, the image is starting to form a bit clearer and the resources are becoming easier and easier to find.
Slowly filling the check list.
so no my crusader in my head looks something like this,
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-etQFeqVskcQ/ToZw3_7...knight.gif
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: | So thanks to all of you here, ive been getting closer and closer to what The ideal knight I want to build.
I was so clueless when I started this topic.
As most of you saw I was thinking the templar knight to look something like this,
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/085/2/...4tz5t0.jpg
Romanticized with plate and other inaccurate gear.
I also thought it was going to be easy, mail and plate with a shield and sword.
Thanks to you guys, i'm on the right track. ( i would like to think so)
Although i must admit i'm still confused, and probably wrong, about a lot of the details.
Though in my head, the image is starting to form a bit clearer and the resources are becoming easier and easier to find.
Slowly filling the check list.
so no my crusader in my head looks something like this,
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-etQFeqVskcQ/ToZw3_7...knight.gif |
This other picture is quite good. It even shows long sleeved robe, accurate for period before 1240.
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Tue 07 Oct, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Here is a selection of footwear. I have not purchased from them but I am sure that others on this site have and could chime in on quality and accuracy...
http://www.bootsbybohemond.net/index.php/shop-ii/shoes-a-pattens
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Foong Chen Hong
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Tue 07 Oct, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: |
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The thing is which one would fit a templar knight?
I don't know if I read it right, but on the link Mart put about the templar's rules
It stated no laced or pointed shoes.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the rule refers to shoes something like the ones shown here. The problem with this image is that it's from circa 1090 to 1120 AD, which means it's roughly 70 years out of date for your time period, and the shoe styles and fashions probably shifted. Nevertheless, it gives a starting point for what shoes appropriate to the Templar Rule might have looked like.
Edit: I hope medieval shoes were somewhat unisex; otherwise, this image is useless.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | Maybe the rule refers to shoes something like the ones shown here. The problem with this image is that it's from circa 1090 to 1120 AD, which means it's roughly 70 years out of date for your time period, and the shoe styles and fashions probably shifted. Nevertheless, it gives a starting point for what shoes appropriate to the Templar Rule might have looked like.
Edit: I hope medieval shoes were somewhat unisex; otherwise, this image is useless.
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So would boots be historically accurate?
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Depends what you mean. More precisely, "boots just like the ones seen in the image are historically accurate for women, and perhaps also men, from 1090 to 1120 AD or so". ;-)
My main purpose in posting the image is to give you a starting point for what the Templar footwear might look like or be similar to.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | Depends what you mean. More precisely, "boots just like the ones seen in the image are historically accurate for women, and perhaps also men, from 1090 to 1120 AD or so". ;-)
My main purpose in posting the image is to give you a starting point for what the Templar footwear might look like or be similar to. |
Oh okay,
It gives me a better idea as to what to look for for sure.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Since Manuscript Miniatures tends to show knights wearing armour, especially post 1170 AD or so when mail chausses and foot protection become more common, it's not the best resource for late 12th century footwear. You might try searching on Pinterest. Ideally, work with images that mention which manuscript the image comes from; by searching for the manuscript in Wikipedia or elsewhere, you can determine the approximate period for the shoes.
It's certainly possible to find of footwear without laces. The trickier part is finding rounded footwear, since shoes with various degrees of pointiness were all the rage in 12th century Europe.
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