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Roberto E.
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 Posted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | Since Manuscript Miniatures tends to show knights wearing armour, especially post 1170 AD or so when mail chausses and foot protection become more common, it's not the best resource for late 12th century footwear. You might try searching on Pinterest. Ideally, work with images that mention which manuscript the image comes from; by searching for the manuscript in Wikipedia or elsewhere, you can determine the approximate period for the shoes.
It's certainly possible to find of footwear without laces. The trickier part is finding rounded footwear, since shoes with various degrees of pointiness were all the rage in 12th century Europe. |
Going on a bit of a healthy tangent...
Did the pointed shoe policy have to do with the arabic forces?
Or why was it banned?
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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It was banned because the Templars were essentially conceived of as a monastic military order. They lived their lives much the way monks did. Thus, they were prohibited from displays of ostentation found on secular clothing at the time.
The image here of Frederick Barbarossa and his sons Henry and Frederick give a good idea of no-lace shoes. Both Henry and the young Frederick are wearing their linen chausses without shoes. However, you can see that Frederick Barbarossa has shoes that do not have laces. I'm not sure if the shoes would have had a buckle at the top that cannot be seen in the images, or if they would have simply been slip-on type shoes.
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Phil D.
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Foong Chen Hong
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Phil D.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the links guys! it really helps a lot!
Okay so
This is the list so far.
-Under tunic
-braies
-chausses
-leather shoes
-tunic
-waist height gambeson
- Mail with coif and mitons integrated
-Mail legging or chausses
-Surcoat
-Norman style nasal helmet
-Cloak
-Kite shield
-Spear
-spurs
All with links given to me by you wonderful people to have them be as historically accurate as possible.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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If Roberto is aiming for historical accuracy, then surely none of these are appropriate. All of them are made of cotton, while the Templars would have almost certainly used linen. The large crosses adorning the chest are how modern people think crusaders should have looked; a small cross sewn to the garment is historically appropriate. Overall, the appearance and design look cheap and modern. I could not recommend Roberto to buy from this vendor.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: |
If Roberto is aiming for historical accuracy, then surely none of these are appropriate. All of them are made of cotton, while the Templars would have almost certainly used linen. The large crosses adorning the chest are how modern people think crusaders should have looked; a small cross sewn to the garment is historically appropriate. Overall, the appearance and design look cheap and modern. I could not recommend Roberto to buy from this vendor. |
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/533465518331475596/
Would this small cross on both the garment and the kite shield be more appropriate? Or is still modern?
I keep seeing the shield as white with the black bar on the top, but mostly represented on a heater.
When i see a kite it usually has a cross, when associated with the templar.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Roberto,
If you compare the size of the cross on the shield in this modern image you have posted with the medieval illustrations you have seen, you'll notice that the cross sizes are completely different.
If I were interepreting a Templar, I would perhaps have a 4 inch cross formed from fabric sewn as a badge somewhere on my surcoat. The size is just a guess, but 4 inches seems appropriate for a small cross that would nevertheless still be visible.
By the way, in reference to the modern image of a crusader you posted above, absolutely do not put metal rims on the edge of your shield. The idea that this was done is a fictitious modern interpretation. The whole point of a wood shield is to use type of wood, such as linden, that allows a sword to hack into it and become stuck. If you put metal on edges of a shield, the metal might reinforce it but you lose one of the key defensive traits of the shield. Besides, something precious like metal is better put to use to create lance heads, swords, or mail armour.
You really need to stop using modern images for reference. ;-)
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Are there any actual historical wall frescoes,images and/or manuscripts depicting the size cross on the tunic...the one on this shield does not look miniscule at all.With the knowledge available here I am sure that there are images available but I personally have yet to see any consistent documentation on a war garment from the dates that Roberto is interested in...just like the shield varies from crosses to half black/white. I am also interested in this period so any clarification would be awesome...
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Roberto E.
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Roberto. From that scale it seems that cross size varies. Also,I would assume that not all garments would be linen.In warmer climates yes but when in cooler climates probably wool etc.
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | Roberto,
If you compare the size of the cross on the shield in this modern image you have posted with the medieval illustrations you have seen, you'll notice that the cross sizes are completely different.
If I were interepreting a Templar, I would perhaps have a 4 inch cross formed from fabric sewn as a badge somewhere on my surcoat. The size is just a guess, but 4 inches seems appropriate for a small cross that would nevertheless still be visible.
By the way, in reference to the modern image of a crusader you posted above, absolutely do not put metal rims on the edge of your shield. The idea that this was done is a fictitious modern interpretation. The whole point of a wood shield is to use type of wood, such as linden, that allows a sword to hack into it and become stuck. If you put metal on edges of a shield, the metal might reinforce it but you lose one of the key defensive traits of the shield. Besides, something precious like metal is better put to use to create lance heads, swords, or mail armour.
You really need to stop using modern images for reference. ;-) |
Thanks for the correction.
I guess it's just tempting since their clearer.
I'm looking at all sorts of effigies, but the sad part is that they dont give much info on the designs.
And on the manuscripts its hard to tell if a soldier is a templar or not.
any advice on this?
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil D. wrote: | | Are there any actual historical wall frescoes,images and/or manuscripts depicting the size cross on the tunic...the one on this shield does not look miniscule at all.With the knowledge available here I am sure that there are images available but I personally have yet to see any consistent documentation on a war garment from the dates that Roberto is interested in...just like the shield varies from crosses to half black/white. I am also interested in this period so any clarification would be awesome... |
Do we even have reason to believe a cross was worn on the tunic?
The Rule of the Temple allows the modest colors of black, white, or brown for the tunic (Incidentally these are all natural colors of wool, so no dye would be required. The Teutonic Order allows gray, which can be made of mixed wool.). Also, the cross of various forms was a common heraldic charge, all crusaders "took the cross", and had it sewn to their clothing. It's impossible to say from a miniature if such figures represent Templars unless they are identified as such.
Judging from 13th century miniatures, the cross seems overblown by most reenactors.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4906/14569/
On the left we have a description of Godfrey of Bouillon, and an army of Hospitalers (hospitalis sanch johannis), Templars (mili ru_ templi), and Teutonic Knights (dom teuronico). If we presume the Templar is in white (surcoat or pair of plates) the red cross on the right breast is probably around 6" / 15 cm at most.
This Matthew Paris example shows no crosses on the clothing at all.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4138/10069/
The Templars in Alfonso the Wise's Libro de los juegos from 1283 have crosses about the length of a hand on their mantles or cloaks, but none visible on their tunics or cappa which aren't white either.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ss1283.jpg
Of course none of this is absolute evidence of the practice in the 1190s, but it seems a cross about the size of a hand or smaller sewn only to the mantle is safer than a large cross covering the entire chest of a tunic.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: |
Of course none of this is absolute evidence of the practice in the 1190s, but it seems a cross about the size of a hand or smaller sewn only to the mantle is safer than a large cross covering the entire chest of a tunic. |
As stated before, ive been noticing that the banner of the templars is not the commonly depicted cross on white, but its actually white with the black bar on top.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscr.../401-2.jpg
So on the kite shield, would that be an appropiate design?
so far ive only seen it on heater shields in the manuscripts.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil D. wrote: | | Are there any actual historical wall frescoes,images and/or manuscripts depicting the size cross on the tunic...the one on this shield does not look miniscule at all.With the knowledge available here I am sure that there are images available but I personally have yet to see any consistent documentation on a war garment from the dates that Roberto is interested in...just like the shield varies from crosses to half black/white. I am also interested in this period so any clarification would be awesome... |
Phil,
You'll notice that the cross in this image, which is bigger than the crosses seen in many other images, is at best half of the shield in size. The image Roberto posted has a much larger cross that dominates most of the shield.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Roberto,
To the best of my knowledge, we don't know if the black and white Templar arms appeared on 12th century kite shields. I think you'll have to decide if you want to include it or not. Judging from the other images, it does not necessarily seem to have been exclusively used by the Templars anyway.
I might consider a generic, late 12th century heraldic design on my shield, and perhaps a small red or white cross sewn inconspicuously, not in the center of the surcoat, but perhaps over the right hand side of my chest, as seen in the images Mart posted.
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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And then to add to my confusion.We have this Templar "blinging out" with crosses...yet they don't seem to be wearing surcoats of any type(at least the standard bearer )
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Could it be that the shield was a personalized choice for the crusader?
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Here is another Osprey illustration but only to show the size cross on surcoat which may be more realistic...
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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This is a standard topic