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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps a Coustille or another blade on the cusp of knife to sword like DT6161

Or a big old D-Guard Bowie
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Marik C.S.




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Herbert Schmidt wrote:
Basically the best sword would be the one you are trained with.


Very much the same I was just about to post.

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Hector A.





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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Charles B McFadden wrote:
Seems to me like X or XIV would be most suited. I don't think most people would use a sword to thrust though, even if it had a perfectly capable design for it. It seems that instinctively for defense or attack when someone uses a large bladed weapon, they start wildly hacking with. So edge use seems more natural.

From what I have now read about the "X" type of sword, they seem designed for this.


Type XII is better then X at cutting clothing with the tip, the tip is stiffer and thinner, so naturally better on soft targets. X types will have more resistant edges at the tip because they are thicker, but also cuts less aggressively soft targets.
In a modern scenario there are only soft targets, sometimes thick soft targets.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i want to protect my hands, so if the scenario does allow open-carry swords i would prefer an us m1913 saber or a british 1908 pattern or an austro-hungarian 1904 modell. i think my capo-ferro training would enable me to use these long thrusting blades efficiently and keep me safe distant from knifes and machetes.

if open-carry was not possible i would take something more concealable like that sinclair cutlass or at least a long D-guard bowie knife.

why would most here prefer a machete ? imho the little value wasted, if forced to throw it away, is a weak argument in a strife for life and death.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't specifically want a machete - just any machete-like knife. A kukhri, panga, bolo, or large bowie would do the same job as far as I'm concerned. Machete would be my first choice because that is what I feel most comfortable with. A sword would not be particularly useful to me because 99% of the time I would be using it as a tool, not a weapon.
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Robert Morgan




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For a straight sword, something in the Type X - XIII families would probably be superior. If you have small halls and confined spaces, then a singlehanded blade would likely work best, but more open spaces may lend themselves to a two handed weapon. I have a Black Prince Type XVA, and its an exceptionally maneuverable weapon for tight spaces, despite being a fairly large two handed sword.

Now, having said all of this, a falchion might be your best option. Depending upon its design (there are wide variations in falchions), you could use its thrusting abilities and its great cutting abilities, too. Imagine a bad guy trying to come up a flight of stairs or around a corner with you waiting there, ready to cut downwards.

I also own an axe and will get a tactical tomahawk for home defense, as well. Oh, and a nice .45. Never forget the M1911. Never.

Bob
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 8:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hector A. wrote:
Charles B McFadden wrote:
Seems to me like X or XIV would be most suited. I don't think most people would use a sword to thrust though, even if it had a perfectly capable design for it. It seems that instinctively for defense or attack when someone uses a large bladed weapon, they start wildly hacking with. So edge use seems more natural.

From what I have now read about the "X" type of sword, they seem designed for this.


Type XII is better then X at cutting clothing with the tip, the tip is stiffer and thinner, so naturally better on soft targets. X types will have more resistant edges at the tip because they are thicker, but also cuts less aggressively soft targets.
In a modern scenario there are only soft targets, sometimes thick soft targets.


How thick are XII near the tip? About 2-3mm looks usual for X. Are XII that much thinner?

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Ben Coomer




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@ Robert.

The main reason I'd choose a Type XIV over a long XV, which would be my usual preference, is that my Agincourt is a lot harder to carry around, in general. It whacks doors. Clips other people. Rubs against walls. My Type XIV sits much closer to me and being shorter, it doesn't run into as much trying to walk around. In actual use, I could still be pretty effective in tight quarters. Particularly if I relied on thrusting.

But back to this topic, would people still prefer a machete if there were ideas like "open carry" and "stand your ground" applied to blades? If you didn't need to ditch the thing, would you still go with something that is honestly pretty limited in what it can do?
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Robert Morgan




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Certainly, the internal layout of your personal castle needs to be taken into account when selecting your weapon of choice. Like I said, tight quarters and a singlehanded weapon is perhaps best. But, in more open spaces, like a large house might have, a two handed weapon might work better. The other thing to think about is that with a two handed weapon, its probably easier to use the pommel and crossguard as weapons, as well. I've started longsword training, and its amazing how the old masters used all parts of the sword. I'm not saying that you couldn't use a singlehanded sword's other surfaces to fight with, just that I'm finding that a two handed weapon lends itself better (in my neophyte view) to using all parts of the sword effectively. Having said that, its my Hanwei/Tinker Type X Norman that's near my bed stand if anyone does try to break in. Its just so light and agile in close quarters, but the Black Prince is nearby, too.

You may also want to think about how tall your ceilings are, if you intend to use a zornhaw or other movements that require a fair amount of arm movement and blade rotation. That may affect your blade choice.

If you want a stiffer, more modern singlehanded blade, then Windlass/MRL makes the Chioggia Sword, a nice Type XX replica, I believe, and one of their better efforts. Its on closeout at MRL. For the price, its hard to argue. Which manufacturer makes your Agincourt, Ben? Is that an Albion?

Take care,

Bob
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Coomer wrote:
But back to this topic, would people still prefer a machete if there were ideas like "open carry" and "stand your ground" applied to blades? If you didn't need to ditch the thing, would you still go with something that is honestly pretty limited in what it can do?

How many times in your life do you think that a sword would be handy against a fellow human? Odds are that you'd never have to use it. I would still choose a machete because I can't clear underbrush, chop down a sapling, or whittle a spear shaft with a Type XIV or XV.

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Robert Morgan




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, believe it or not, I was using my swords earlier today for longsword practice in my yard. I can attest that a Type X and a Type XVA can both clear undergrowth and hack away at very fibrous growth, like ferns. and, if various Youtube videos are to be believed longswords like the Sempach types can be used to chop down small trees, shrubs and such.

Now, what the neighbors were thinking of my antics I don't even want to fathom. Surprised Confused
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Ben Coomer




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, my Type XIV cleared out an entire backyard of tall weeds this summer.

Its not idea for the task, but at the same time there are assailants enough to justify me carrying around a bladed object, then I am going to go for an actual sword, that's designed for combat. That is, after all, the whole point of a sword.

Besides, are you in that much need of a brush clearing item on your person at all times that much more than a sword?
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 10:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't need a brush clearing item. I need a brush clearer, wood carver, tree pruner, bark stripper, animal butcherer, screwdriver, shovel, hammer, crowbar, spatula, and bbq scraper. Way way down the list is a self-defence weapon.
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Last edited by Dan Howard on Fri 07 Nov, 2014 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Robert Morgan




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's all fine. However, what you need to remember is that a machete is a close range weapon. All edged weapons are, to a degree, but a longsword or even a fairly long single handed sword can just perhaps keep your enemies at arms length. There is something to be said for that.

I've just started longsword training, but the few times I've gone someone seems to get the one smaller, shorter training sword. That person is at a distinct disadvantage. Reach counts. I imagine a machete would be the same way.
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 10:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If violence is that likely, then carry your spear. That gives a large advantage against even a longsword.

If violence is that likely, then it's likely that people do carry spears around, and then it becomes useful to carry an anti-spear weapon. A Chinese solution is to carry two swords, possibly two short swords. Can work very well against a naive spearman. I'd rate such as better against spear than a longsword is against a spear.

If you carry your spear, then any sword is a sidearm you might resort to if too close to use the spear. Then a short weapon is easy to draw and can be used in such conditions. If violence isn't that likely, general utility and ease of carry can matter more than reach as a weapon. Either way, short bladed weapons have often been the everyday carry choice, even if they're inferior to something like a longsword. (But don't bring one as your main weapon to a duel if the opponent will have a longsword!)

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Robert Morgan




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 11:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure that I'd say that a short sword, like an arming sword, is necessarily inferior to a longsword. A lot comes down to skill and ability. A skilled person with short sword and buckler can defeat a person carrying only a longsword. The short sword wielding person relies more on slashes and cuts (that's a vast simplicity), and uses the buckler to neutralize the longsword.

I agree that carrying more than one weapon is ideal. Indeed, medieval knights often did just that, carrying a sword but also a hammer, mace or polearm. That way, they were covered for nearly all contingencies. For home defense, maybe a machete, falchion, axe, hammer, tomahawk and then a sword.

Bob
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 11:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sword and buckler is quite a different animal to sword alone.

Under typical duelling conditions (time to get ready, open field), I'd still favour longsword over short sword and buckler (and even more over sword along). So I'm happy with "short sword is inferior to longsword" as a generalisation, with the understanding that there will be exceptional circumstances. But yes, skill can let the use of an inferior weapon win.

I wouldn't call an arming sword a "short sword". A longish arming sword has about the same reach as a typical longsword (considering that one-handed effectively gives you about 4" more reach compared to two-handed), and arming sword and buckler is to be treated with respect from the perspective of a longsword. Against a short sword, the difference in reach makes it much safer for the longsword.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Ben Coomer




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 11:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Timo Nieminen wrote:
If violence is that likely, then carry your spear. That gives a large advantage against even a longsword.

If violence is that likely, then it's likely that people do carry spears around, and then it becomes useful to carry an anti-spear weapon. A Chinese solution is to carry two swords, possibly two short swords. Can work very well against a naive spearman. I'd rate such as better against spear than a longsword is against a spear.

If you carry your spear, then any sword is a sidearm you might resort to if too close to use the spear. Then a short weapon is easy to draw and can be used in such conditions. If violence isn't that likely, general utility and ease of carry can matter more than reach as a weapon. Either way, short bladed weapons have often been the everyday carry choice, even if they're inferior to something like a longsword. (But don't bring one as your main weapon to a duel if the opponent will have a longsword!)


Well, spears aren't exactly the most portable of weapons. Particularly if you are trying to get in and out of doors (from personal experience...).

I would guess that, if this were reality, that people would weigh what they thought they might meet, what they are willing to carry, and personal preference. Everybody's made good suggestions and had good reasons why, and most seem to be in line with historical choices. Lots of shorter, multi-purpose weapons that are relatively easy to carry. What people actually would choose comes down to preference.
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Robert Morgan




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 12:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Against a short sword, the difference in reach makes it much safer for the longsword.



Except that the buckler or heater shield can block the longsword, leaving the arming/short sword free to attack. Obviously, this is as much an issue of skill as anything else, but I'd rate the contest as equal, all other things being equivalent. Else, why did the single handed sword persist so long into the 15th century? Combined with a proper shield and with proper skill, it was the equal of the longsword in single combat. That was the key, of course - single combat. In a combined arms or melee situation, the result might be far different.
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Ron Reimer




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 12:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm surprised no ones mentioned a seax , it's a general purpose sidearm. Depending on its type, it will thrust ,chop and cut well, clear brush , flip burgers, split firewood and do most things a machete will do. Even with a 13" blade it's somewhat concealable and with training capable of opposing longer weapons such as the sword.
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