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Stephen Curtin
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 Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | | Dennis Courneyea wrote: | | I don't recall the souces, but I've read of small round shields found in Anglo-Saxon graves. It isn't known whether or not these smaller shields were actually used in battle - it has also been speculated that they were made specifically as grave goods, made smaller to reduce the cost and/or to more easily fit in a standard sized grave. |
Don't those smaller shields correspond to smaller shields shown in artwork as well? I also wonder why a grave would have real weapons and other items (pottery, jewelry, presumably clothing?) but a fake shield. Are we dealing with yet another sweeping assumption made a hudred years ago that is still echoing through later generations of scholarship? We may also be worrying more about costs than the folks living back then did... |
My thoughts exactly Matthew. Part of becoming a man back then was receiving a spear and a shield. So it makes sense for these things to be buried with the man when he died. Why then would real swords, axes, and spears be buried, but not real shields. Also the cost agreement doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't the iron boss be the most expensive part? Why go to the bother of taking a boss from a perfectly functional shield, only to put it on a non-functional shield, just so it would fit in a grave which you could easily have made a bit wider.
Éirinn go Brách
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Is the OP asking about kite shields vs. center gripped round shields, or just round shields in general, including bucklers, targes and rotellas? They are fairly different things, after all--at least, there are enough differences that some of the arguments made for or against a particular action may be negated, i.e. a rotella can do many (though not all) things that a kite shield could do, mechanics-wise.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Baard H
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Dennis Courneyea wrote: | | Timo Nieminen wrote: |
(Once it has things stuck through it, a center-gripped shield is easier to drop.)
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Additionally an opponent can grasp a strapped on shield and use it as a lever to twist and/or break the wearer's arm. In contrast if an opponent tries this on a centre grip shield, the wearer can easily release the shield, either dropping it or quickly grabbing the grip again with a different hand position. |
Let me put it bluntly; if you grab hold of my shield, I'll cut your arm off. Then you can try to twist my arm...
At kveldi skal dag leyfa,
konu, er brennd er,
mćki, er reyndr er,
mey, er gefin er,
ís, er yfir kemr,
öl, er drukkit er.
-Hávamál, vísa 81
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kai Lawson wrote: | | Is the OP asking about kite shields vs. center gripped round shields, or just round shields in general, including bucklers, targes and rotellas? They are fairly different things, after all--at least, there are enough differences that some of the arguments made for or against a particular action may be negated, i.e. a rotella can do many (though not all) things that a kite shield could do, mechanics-wise. |
The OP began by talking about Hastings, so I believe the question was about large central gripped round shields vs kite shields.
Éirinn go Brách
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Baard H
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: |
| Baard H wrote: | | As for catching a blade/axe/spear in your shield. This is a theory (too) often presented as a viable strategy I think... |
I'll agree with that. I was mostly putting it forward as something that a warrior would have to consider. I haven't had time to watch that whole video, but I did notice that the spears had blunt tips--that changes the physics and removes any chance of sticking in the shield. It *might* not be significant, but *I don't know*! |
Blunts actually make it harder to open up a shield, as it is easier for it to glance off wasting the energy while a sharp would bite into the shield and send all the energy where you want it (In reenactment fighting it is much easier to open a shield if it has rawhide edging you can catch onto than those that doesn't)
| Matthew Amt wrote: |
Okay, BUT it all works both ways! *Both* sides have friends to help them, and anyone using a particular shield will be aware of what can happen when it is struck. Some men will be better fighters, of course, but isn't it possible that many simply did not let anyone hit their shield in that way? I mean, that would be a "Day One" lesson for any militia muster: "Don't do X because you'll die." And even in a pretty close formation, with 3-foot shields overlapping, it's not necessarily *that* hard to slide back between your buddies behind you. If you're quick enough, of course! |
Again a little example from the reenactment fighting I know: One of the things we strive to do is to work together faster than the opposing person/team so if I stand there with my spear and think "I'm going to open that guys shield" I won't just do it and assume someone will follow up with it. I'll make sure someone is ready for my move, either by getting their attention or having a plan made beforehand. Sometimes we have two two-handed spearmen going around where one open the shield and the other follows up with their killing strike before the first actually make contact with the shield, minimizing the risk of counters.
Also, if you angle your shield in a shield wall, it will still be in a good angle for someone else further down the line, AND you open yourself up for someone else AND you open up your friend for another one, so not really a smart thing to do.
| Matthew Amt wrote: |
Sure, we have more and more replicas these days which are quite accurate, and I trust them to be "close enough" for things like weapon tests. BUT we also still have a few basic unknowns. Obviously there are well-made repro swords which are very faithful to the originals, but how many spearheads are made with the same attention to minute measurement and detail? I'm betting most Indian-made ones are not. As I understand it, there is still debate about shield construction, including the types of wood, subtleties of thickness (though we're probably in the ballpark on that one), whether they were faced with rawhide, some kind of leather, fabric, etc. Those all could make a difference. |
Too true... But I would say it isn't as important handling wise when it comes to spears if the metals length/weight ratio is made exactly as the originals as it is for a sword (barring any really, really bad constructions). We have quite a lot of different lengths and weights to choose from and we have next to no idea how long the shafts were, so it gets a bit speculative no matter what we do.
With this in mind, I've recently fallen in love with longer spearheads from the earlier viking period and have ordered one of quite some length from a good European maker, can't wait to test it out to see if there are some differences from my old one (besides the weight and the moral-breaking length...).
At kveldi skal dag leyfa,
konu, er brennd er,
mćki, er reyndr er,
mey, er gefin er,
ís, er yfir kemr,
öl, er drukkit er.
-Hávamál, vísa 81
Last edited by Baard H on Mon 10 Nov, 2014 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Baard H wrote: | | Blunts actually make it harder to open up a shield, as it is easier for it to glance off wasting the energy while a sharp would bite into the shield and send all the energy where you want it (In reenactment fighting it is much easier to open a shield if it has rawhide edging you can catch onto than those that doesn't) |
Oh! Huh, okay, I can see that.
| Quote: | | Matthew Amt wrote: |
Sure, we have more and more replicas these days which are quite accurate, and I trust them to be "close enough" for things like weapon tests. BUT we also still have a few basic unknowns. Obviously there are well-made repro swords which are very faithful to the originals, but how many spearheads are made with the same attention to minute measurement and detail? I'm betting most Indian-made ones are not. As I understand it, there is still debate about shield construction, including the types of wood, subtleties of thickness (though we're probably in the ballpark on that one), whether they were faced with rawhide, some kind of leather, fabric, etc. Those all could make a difference. |
Too true... But I would say it isn't as important handling wise when it comes to spears if the metals length/weight ratio is made exactly as the originals as it is for a sword (barring any really, really bad constructions). We have quite a lot of different lengths and weights to choose from and we have next to no idea how long the shafts were, so it gets a bit speculative no matter what we do. |
Yes, that's true! With the variation that we have, it's kinda hard *not* to end up somewhere in the ballpark. Though I've seen some real anvil-like repro spearheads...
| Quote: | | With this in mind, I've recently fallen in love with longer spearheads from the earlier viking period and have ordered one of quite some length from a good European maker, can't wait to test it out to see if there are some differences from my old one (besides the weight and the moral-breaking length...). |
Hah, with my current Greek obsession, I'm more interested in LITTLE spearheads, on scary-thin tapered shafts! I want to feel how light they were. Making a Macedonian pike, too. (Off-topic! Off-topic!)
Matthew
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Baard H
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: |
Hah, with my current Greek obsession, I'm more interested in LITTLE spearheads, on scary-thin tapered shafts! I want to feel how light they were. Making a Macedonian pike, too. (Off-topic! Off-topic!)
Matthew |
Off-topic! Off-topic!
There's a guy here in Norway who has a tiny point (probably weighs less than if you'd made it from wood) and put it on a 1.6 m shaft a quarter as thick as what's usual. It's a toothpick!
The Macedonian Phalanx... *shudder*... Don't wan't to be on receiving end...
Off-topic ended.
At kveldi skal dag leyfa,
konu, er brennd er,
mćki, er reyndr er,
mey, er gefin er,
ís, er yfir kemr,
öl, er drukkit er.
-Hávamál, vísa 81
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Alexis Bataille
Location: montpellier Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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yes it was about hasting times pro and con about kite shield vs large rounded shield.
After 2 pages of post i tend to think that if someone ask me to stand in line for hours against arrows i will choose kite shield and if some one ask me to make a surprise attack behind the lines i will choose big rounded shield.
but perhaps against long range arrows i will prefer round shield to cover my head x)
I was thinking it was an easy question  but thanks all for trying.
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Timo Nieminen wrote: | | Further against missiles: a centre gripped shield is better against shield-piercing javelins (and arrows). Anything that goes through the shield has to penetrate much deeper before it reaches the person holding the shield. |
This seems to be what is described in The Iliad, in the fight between Achilles and Aeneas:
"And the son of Peleus held the shield from him with his stout hand, being seized with dread; for he deemed that the far-shadowing spear of great-hearted Aeneas would lightly pierce it through
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Then Achilles in his turn hurled his far-shadowing spear and smote upon Aeneas' shield that was well-balanced upon every side, beneath the outermost rim where the bronze ran thinnest, and thinnest was the backing of bull's-hide; and the shield rang beneath the blow. And Aeneas cringed and held from him the shield, being seized with fear"
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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