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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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 Posted: Sat 02 May, 2015 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Mart. Thank you for instructions about this square oriental riveting.Learning a lot.
In both shirts the ring size is rather big. Flat and solid rings tended to be early feature. Real strong protection. Mail following the taylored clothing tended to be made like clothing, from small rings. Most of the european mail garments sewed to the cloth in late period tend to be made of very high quality small ring mail. All the bishopsmantles from Dresden are made of tiny rings.
Tayloring this open shirt or let say mail cape or big size bishopsmantle would make automatically medial ridge form and remind of codpiece with strong medial and little pointy belly made with skirt. Afterall the rows of rings are changing in the medial.
Altough making a this kind of item related to bishopsmantles would not date it much earlier than c.1500.
Taste of coming codpeace breast with lowering waste line can be seen as early as 1540.
Like Gonzaka armour a.528 WKHM, A 36 WC.
So i would be still carefull in dating these both items or putting them very late.
Origin is very interesting. Baltic- it should be Königsberg or Riga. Sweden-close to Arboga.? We can only guess.
Seems that these two shirts are very related and it must be the same region or more likely same workshop /city.
Let see what more is coming.
Pieter that oriental mail looks very nice. The other one seems to be out of date. 
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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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To make a good stew Im still putting little more stir to this thing.
Here is one picture from Worldantiques pinterest website.
Picture of the similar mailcape. Flat solid rings, deorated stipled rings and same tayloring.
No idea where it is but seems to be from the same work shop again.
Actually we have now three mail shirts of the approx same form same quality and style.
So these are not so rare actually. 
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Some interesting information on that last piece. You might want to check your example for the same "cross" of rings.
| Quote: | | European riveted mail hauberk, late 16th c, tapering to a point at the front, alternating flattened and circular rings, standing collar of close-set rings involving two double rows of flattened dotted rings bordered by three rows of flattened latten rings, the openings for the arms around the top and the bottom edges with a row of dotted rings bordered by flattened latten rings, the right armpit with four large dotted rings each secured by two circular riveted rings, probably talismanic. |
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
If we get people to do nothing else besides taking pictures that show the inside and outside of the ring, we'll have made a major contribution to the study.
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Mart, absolutely right, in fact I was sent some images of this same hauberk by the former owner who has a lot of experience and he failed to send me the inside link images!!! Thanks to Peter for providing them, I do not know if there are any other inside link images of this type of mail so these are important.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Duplicate post, this can be deleted.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Mustonen wrote: | Mart I have sent you a private message about this shirt to send you additional pictures.
Im pretty shy from my private items and as there is so many viewers on a forum like this. Someone will always use the pictures for His own purpouses.
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Peter, I often hear this same statement from people as a reason they are afraid to post pictures of items they own but if everyone did that what images would be available to learn from? Exactly what evil purposes would people use your images for?
I have posted hundreds of images from items I own and many more that people send to me of their items that they let me post and I have not had any negative problems, instead many people have been able to learn from these images and I encourage other people to do the same and OPENLY share images of items they have hidden away at home.
In addition, have you not been using the images you find online to help you, if people did not post these how would you proceed with your research on ther shirt you own?
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
If we get people to do nothing else besides taking pictures that show the inside and outside of the ring, we'll have made a major contribution to the study.
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Mart, absolutely right, in fact I was sent some images of this same hauberk by the former owner who has a lot of experience and he failed to send me the inside link images!!! Thanks to Peter for providing them, I do not know if there are any other inside link images of this type of mail so these are important. |
Perhaps looking at the inside of the turned-back collar of this other example?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e4/e8/b8/e4e8b8dfe3a01c6348cf82788e1b768c.jpg
Peter,
Do the "dotted" or "pimpled" rings on your example have the bumps on both sides of the ring or only the external side? It appears they are only external on the "vest" version.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/409968372304330614/
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon 04 May, 2015 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Eric.
About pictures. Most of the online images available are from museums or auction houses. I have shared pictures of the details quite openly and by request I have no problem to share.
I have worked professionally over 20 years with genuine arms and armor and I ve seen so many times my items for sale somewhere where it should not be. Offered to somebody which I later find out I have never ever send a pictures or put the price on.
There are many dealers in former soviet countries who offer items just with a pictures and ask small front payment from the clients, then disappearing.
Just happened with one revolver. Picture I shared as a study purposes to one russian collector, and there was bunch of dealers here calling and asking who owns this revolver. Everybody had seen it. I also work with cars and for the same purposes some people want their license plates covered in car shows etc.
But this is mostly because I live here in Finland; a melting point of two different commercial and mental approach.
From the commercial point of view it is always better if the item comes very very fresh to the market and it is not known before.
All tough Im not doing this research for commercial use but for my own. Im very keen in collecting and knowing.
These are the reasons Im rather shy about some items in my private collection, especially items which I consider to be little higher quality or extremely rare.
I hope you accept my decisions in every individual items and there will be many more items or interesting pictures to share.
Mart. There is no dots inside the rings. There is no "cross" under the arm pits. Both shirts Swedish and the other one seem to have sleeves cut.
Here is the back of the dotted rings between the latten. Dots are different in rings some are square dots and some or smaller rounded.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 04 May, 2015 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Mustonen wrote: | Eric.
About pictures. Most of the online images available are from museums or auction houses. |
Peter, that is your right to not post images of your items but the fact is that you are using images that belong to other people in order to study about the armor you just bought, whether to resell or to keep and are you not the owner of Morion Antique of Finland? Do you not post images of the items you have for sale in your shop? That some images do come from a museum or auction house makes no difference, the owners of the images still allowed them to be posted and without covering them with watermarks.
Your arguments do not hold up in the light of reality but if you are having so many problems with your images being misused then maybe you are dealing with the wrong people. I have dealt with some of the best known dealers of Japanese and Indo-Persian arms and armor in the world and except for a few rare individuals they also openly post images without watermarks, somehow they manage to be able to do this but you cant because some evil people MAY misuse your images, you sound rather paranoid.
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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon 04 May, 2015 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Eric. chill out.
We are talking about forum, not shared private pictures by the well known dealers.
I make a big difference of my personal items and items that are in commercial use owned by my company.
I think its a big difference using museum pictures that you are allowed to share. There is many museums that doesn't allow to take pictures and those pictures should not be shared without permission. Im sharing many pictures on some forums to study. Some items I like to keep private.
When you find out sometimes your item is for sale in ebay and you haven't post it, you will become paranoid too. 
I still hope you and everyone has learned something about closeups and this small study. If you feel Im just using your information I hope I may return that in double sometimes, and I may.
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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon 04 May, 2015 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Somehow these remind Polish Bechter.
Here is the best one from Museum narodowe Krakow.
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Mon 04 May, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I in no way want to derail this thread (as it is very informative!) but I feel compelled to say that the photo Peter included of the bechter is beautiful. What gorgeous armor!
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Mustonen wrote: | Somehow these remind Polish Bechter.
Here is the best one from Museum narodowe Krakow. |
A very refined armor.
This photo is from the museum.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Eric S wrote: | | Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
If we get people to do nothing else besides taking pictures that show the inside and outside of the ring, we'll have made a major contribution to the study.
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Mart, absolutely right, in fact I was sent some images of this same hauberk by the former owner who has a lot of experience and he failed to send me the inside link images!!! Thanks to Peter for providing them, I do not know if there are any other inside link images of this type of mail so these are important. |
Perhaps looking at the inside of the turned-back collar of this other example?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e4/e8/b8/e4e8b8dfe3a01c6348cf82788e1b768c.jpg
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Mart, it a good photo but not quite good enough, I have yet to see an auction house deliberatly show the inside of the links.
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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I can see. This is not the same shirt that I have. Mine has 10cm wide cross cut on the lower part of the neck. Forming the front like a small flap. Skirt rows 16. Here in the pictures of Eric there is 18 rows and no sleeves. Also for some reason there is square corner on the right shoulder where the rings are changing position.
Yet there is one more shirt belonging to this group in museum woijska polskiego. Pictured in early zygulski book. I dont know the rules of showing pictures from printed material so maybe we can have that in here if possible.
I was not joking when I said these remind me from Bechters. Maybe these were shirts that were meant to be worn under separate bechter type of plate composition strapped in the front?
Zygulski no. 211
Cheers. Ptr
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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Kai. There is one more nice bechter in Poznan museum Poland. In some aspects better than the one in Krakow but I like the fluent line of the Krakow one.
Wojska Polskiego has on strap-on bechter stated to be russian.
Maybe someone has more pictures of those.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Peter Mustonen wrote: | Somehow these remind Polish Bechter.
Here is the best one from Museum narodowe Krakow. |
A very refined armor. |
I don't suppose there are pics of the inside of this armour and close-ups of the links?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Eric S wrote: | | Peter Mustonen wrote: | Somehow these remind Polish Bechter.
Here is the best one from Museum narodowe Krakow. |
A very refined armor. |
I don't suppose there are pics of the inside of this armour and close-ups of the links? |
Wouldnt that be nice, I looked for that last night but could not find anything more than this additional image from a book.
At least we can see the back side.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Mustonen wrote: | | Also for some reason there is square corner on the right shoulder where the rings are changing position. |
I thought the last 5 rows or so of your sleeves also change row direction at the "hem"?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 05 May, 2015 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Mustonen wrote: | Kai. There is one more nice bechter in Poznan museum Poland. In some aspects better than the one in Krakow but I like the fluent line of the Krakow one.
Wojska Polskiego has on strap-on bechter stated to be russian.
Maybe someone has more pictures of those. |
Here is the translated description.
| Quote: | Bekhter from the collections of the Museum of the Polish Army made with vertical rows of plates measuring about m1,9x4,5cm. The individual rows are connected together by means of three rows of circles with a diameter of 12mm, wherein the intermediate row is composed of the single wheels and the two side riveted joints.
The armor is fastened on the left side using the clips and straps, also on the shoulders of the joint is similar - two buckles and straps fall on each arm. Breastplate made up of four rows of tiles; the middle is wider at the top and bottom. Backplate is made of the same. Rows of tiles under the arms are shorter.
Tiles, of which the second row, with the middle of the front and back are covered in their entirety fine gilded ornament. The remaining rows are decorated with gold-plated in the same way four-belt outlined obliquely through the whole Bekhter and radiating from the row down the center to the sides.
Dimensions: length in the front - 52 cm from the back - 56 cm, weight -11.60 kg. The armor is a great example of East European płatnerstwa. Identical in form Bekhter is located in Moscow Orużejnej Palacia, and was made by master Conon Mikhailov, for the Tsar Michael Romanov in 1620. By analogy object from the Museum of the Polish Army should be dated to the first half of the seventeenth century and can not be ruled out that was a trophy of war (even from the period of the Smolensk War 1632-1634).
It comes from the collection of George Lisowski and was accepted to the museum in 1928. This type of armor appeared in the East in the Middle Ages, it was a platelet-chain mail design used by the Persians, the Turks, but then also in Hungary and Poland. Particularly popular enjoyed in Russia, then in the State of Moscow, where he developed his form known in the literature Bekhter Moscow (the Russian bechtierec); It was used mainly by driving pomiestną.
The armor in the form of a straight jacket without sleeves and a collar, reached below the waist. He was closing on the shoulders and on the left side buckles and straps tied. The main part of this protection consisted of a rectangular, oblong and convex metal plates arranged vertically in rows and assembled on the banks of braided chain mail. The plates overlap one another, and through appropriate flexible connecting, achieved excellent results, because one plate hit the point or the tip drew the two adjacent to each other, thus multiplying the protective layer. Down Bekhter was completed kolczym apron. Moscow Classical Bekhter had seven rows of tiles backplate and five breastplate, and two or three sides. See also: Horse pomiestna Michael Mackiewicz. |
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This is a standard topic