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Alina Boyden
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 Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Winston wrote: |
I was wondering where you've been hanging out. 
I don't spend much time on the forums lately (with the exception of the eewrs). This board is outstanding, but I've usually little to add unless an "ethnographic" thread like this pops up. Professional and family commitments are clashing with some writing and a museum project. Not enough time in the day.
Nice grab on that Topkapi book. I've been on the prowl for it for some time. I'd also like to pick up Elgood's The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries, but even the copies on Amazon approach $300. I did, however, just get his recent book on Indian weapons, and highly recommend it. I haven't had the time to read it completely, but it is typically beautiful, well written and painstakingly researched. He's a good guy, too. If Manoucher's book gets published, we may soon be wallowing in previously unpublished primary research.
That kilic/shamshir was posted by Charles Suanders on the eewrs for identification recently. I thought you might like it as it's unusual.
Nice to talk with you again.
Best regards,
Andrew |
I'd like to get the Elgood book(s) as well but university texts are expensive enough as it is. Anyway, nice to see you around. I might have to poke my head into eewrs sometime.
That shamshir/kilij is really interesting. I've been looking at it trying to decide where it comes from. The hilt is a Turkish shamshir hilt, there really are a lot of other examples like that. But the blade seems to be neither one nor the other. Oh well, maybe the folks at eewrs can work it out.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Winston wrote: | | but I've usually little to add unless an "ethnographic" thread like this pops up. |
Hi Andrew,
Time permitting, you should start some of these threads yourself! I know I myself am largely ignorant of mid-eastern blades, and I'm quite happy Alina started this post. I don't think anyone would mind to learning some more!
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: |
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I'd also like to know more than I do. McDougall over there has handed me my butt a couple of times when I was WAY off base and didn't realize it.
Alina, I'm a total luddite, and have no image-hosting yet. If I can get my act together, I should be able to get a membership and some weapons-image space, but... no images at the moment. Similar to the saifs posted, but generally with a bit more curve, and bit more complex a curve. They move in the hand as if they were weightless, and track wonderfully.
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | Andrew;
Very nifty and informative threads, thank you for posting them!
Cheers,
Gordon |
You're quite welcome, Gordon. 
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | I'd like to get the Elgood book(s) as well but university texts are expensive enough as it is. Anyway, nice to see you around. I might have to poke my head into eewrs sometime.
That shamshir/kilij is really interesting. I've been looking at it trying to decide where it comes from. The hilt is a Turkish shamshir hilt, there really are a lot of other examples like that. But the blade seems to be neither one nor the other. Oh well, maybe the folks at eewrs can work it out. |
It is an intriguing sword. Mid-east/Islamic weapons are not really my thing, but I did find it fascinating. Here's the thread discussing it: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=349
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Andrew Winston wrote: | | but I've usually little to add unless an "ethnographic" thread like this pops up. |
Hi Andrew,
Time permitting, you should start some of these threads yourself! I know I myself am largely ignorant of mid-eastern blades, and I'm quite happy Alina started this post. I don't think anyone would mind to learning some more! |
Hi Bill,
My interests lay more in Southeast Asian weapons, but I enjoy edged weapons of all sorts too. I'll try to post up some cool or unusual things to look at.
Best,
Andrew
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | I'd also like to know more than I do. McDougall over there has handed me my butt a couple of times when I was WAY off base and didn't realize it.
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Sometimes I think Jim has ingested every book ever written about edged weapons. He's a truly nice man, too.
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Winston wrote: | Hi Bill,
My interests lay more in Southeast Asian weapons, but I enjoy edged weapons of all sorts too. I'll try to post up some cool or unusual things to look at.
Best,
Andrew |
Yeah, I haven't seen a dha over on myArmoury yet. Why don't you post some dha stuff here?
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Brad Harada
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| Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: Dha pics (link) |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | Andrew Winston wrote: | Hi Bill,
My interests lay more in Southeast Asian weapons, but I enjoy edged weapons of all sorts too. I'll try to post up some cool or unusual things to look at.
Best,
Andrew |
Yeah, I haven't seen a dha over on myArmoury yet. Why don't you post some dha stuff here? |
Here's a link to a Burmese Dha from Lion Gate
http://www.antiqueswords.com/Asian_and_African_Edged_Weapons.htm
Just scroll down to the Continental Asian section.
Brad
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Roy K.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice. I haven't checked out the site yet other than the opening page but these are the swords of the prophet from the Topkapi museum right?
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Roy K.
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| Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Alina,
Some are from the Topkapi, others are from elsewhere. Lord knows how accurate the provenances really are and how many are "Uncle Bubba" stories. But I guess they think they are for real, with good provenance. They probably have 50 more in the back room including the gen-u-wine m1860 cavalry saber that Mohammed hisself carried when taking Mecca and then gave to great, great uncle Bubba.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy K. wrote: | Alina,
Some are from the Topkapi, others are from elsewhere. Lord knows how accurate the provenances really are and how many are "Uncle Bubba" stories. But I guess they think they are for real, with good provenance. They probably have 50 more in the back room including the gen-u-wine m1860 cavalry saber that Mohammed hisself carried when taking Mecca and then gave to great, great uncle Bubba. |
So Roy, are you suggesting that there might be some gaps in the actual historical record concerning these particular pieces?
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Roy K.
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| Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Gordon,
Those swords have probably been believed to have belonged to the Prophet for a long, long time, but there are enough pieces of the true cross around to build a small church, too. And we have both stood in a certain gun store and politely listened to stories about grandpa's trapdoor Springfield that he carried in the civil war.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Roy;
Ayup! I remember that Springfield Trapdoor... wasn't even an 1873, but an 1884, as I recall... but hey, it LOOKED like it could have been in the Civil War, and it belonged to Grandpa, THEREFORE! Simple logic, don't you see!
How foolish of us mere mortals to question the veracity of such august individuals.
Anyway, good lessons in verbal traditions, and "traditional associations". They are just that, "associations", and only that until shown to be otherwise through different methods. Doesn't mean that such things AREN'T actually what they are claimed to be, but one must approach such things with caution.
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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The topkapi pieces almost certainly didn't belong to the prophet Muhammad (and likely not the ones from the other museums either). However, their importance comes from the fact that they are some of the best surviving examples of early Islamic swords. By early I mean pre-Mongol influence. Most people don't know that up until about 1200 or so, most Islamic swords were straight double edged or single edged affairs. The topkapi pieces are rehilted in a later style but bear the original blades. That's why they're so important.
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Roy K.
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| Posted: Fri 25 Feb, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Alina,
Islamic swords are something I know absolutely zip about, but they sure are interesting. One thing I would like to do is build up a data base of swords. and weaponry in general, that can be put at a definite place at a definite time. Like the basket hilt and matchlock found under the Mary Rose. I think we will be in for a few surprises along the way.
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Dha pics (link) |
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| Brad Harada wrote: | | Alina Boyden wrote: | | Andrew Winston wrote: | Hi Bill,
My interests lay more in Southeast Asian weapons, but I enjoy edged weapons of all sorts too. I'll try to post up some cool or unusual things to look at.
Best,
Andrew |
Yeah, I haven't seen a dha over on myArmoury yet. Why don't you post some dha stuff here? |
Here's a link to a Burmese Dha from Lion Gate
http://www.antiqueswords.com/Asian_and_African_Edged_Weapons.htm
Just scroll down to the Continental Asian section.
Brad |
Hi Brad,
Lion's Gate has some nice stuff, but those dha are not particularly desireable. The two sword-sized dha versions are typically referred to as "Temple Swords". They vary in quality, but are never really user swords. Rather, they are inlaid with scenes from the Buddha's life, and are probably used in various quasi-religious ceremonies (marriages, funerals, house blessings, etc.). The blades are crude, formed by stock-removal and I've not seen one hardened for use. The scabbard and handles are usually covered in reppoussed (sp?) brass sheeting, often silvered.
The knife is nice, but I'd not pay that price for it.
This is awfully OT, however. I'll start another thread with some dha to see if anyone's really interested in obscure swords from SEA.
Best,
Andrew
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
Last edited by Andrew Winston on Sat 26 Feb, 2005 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | The topkapi pieces almost certainly didn't belong to the prophet Muhammad (and likely not the ones from the other museums either). However, their importance comes from the fact that they are some of the best surviving examples of early Islamic swords. By early I mean pre-Mongol influence. Most people don't know that up until about 1200 or so, most Islamic swords were straight double edged or single edged affairs. The topkapi pieces are rehilted in a later style but bear the original blades. That's why they're so important. |
I agree. It's difficult to accept many of the stories surrounding some of the swords in the Topkapi, particularly those connected to Mohammed and David. Hard to imagine the Prophet's sword being held in Turkey.
"Provenance" aside, there are some truly wonderful weapons in that museum. Someday...
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Sun 27 Feb, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: |
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This book on persian metalwork appeared again,might be of interest to one or two,
there is also four or five rusian sword books featuring a few islamic swords over there too,(different seller)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...:B:EF:US:1
Hey Andrew,
Nice to see you chap,glad all's well too,
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