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Nathan Bell
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 Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: Some custom Celtic spearpoints |
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I thought a few of you might be interested in seeing these, now that they are all done.
These are hand-forged custom Celtic spearpoints made by John Heinz of Herugrim ironworks.
The large "flamberge" spearhead is based on the Octroi de Beaucaire find.
The gap-edged spear (some suggest a very stylized crane/heron head in shape) is based on one found at La Tene.
The small wave-bladed spear is based on a (unprovenanced?) 1st century BC British find. This may again be a stylized crane/heron/kingfisher form.
Hope a few of you enjoy looking.
N
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! This is a nice sword  I can tell just by looking at the definition of the fuller  I do not recognize any of the swords in your collection as currently shown on this web site. What sword is it? I guess an Albion Geibig type 3.
The spear-head look fine too, but I cannot appreciate them as much. Having dealt with John Heinz, I have little doubt that he did a good job.
alexi
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Looks more like a Giebig Type 4 to me.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Oh for the love of Pete 
I knew I shoulda cropped that....
Well anyways, it's the Jarl, which is a nice sword, a fine sword, a very fun sword. I think there are more than a few pics of a Jarl with black grip out there though...
The spears, gentlemen, it's the spears---those are a little more unusual! 
But the Jarl is a really nice sword, too 
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Looks more like a Giebig Type 4 to me. |
And apparently you are right With that elongated tip......what was I thinking.
So Nathan B., why the wavy lines of the spear tips? Simply fashion or was there some functional aspect as well?
Alexi
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Alexi;
The waviness might just be stylistic but might have uses when parrying and might work a bit like giant serrations?
Funny, I read somewhere that these wavy edges had no enhanced cutting capabilities when applied to large twohanders by some "expert" in some book ! ( don't remember where though )
I tend to disagree with that idea: In a chop these waves may not do much, but I would think they would be very agressive in a draw cut. Not sure if the Ivory tower type who said they had no practical use was just repeating what some other Ivory tower type may have written 50 years before.
Also, these points just look mean! And the psychological factor, fear of being run through by one of these, could be in part the reason for the wavy lines.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Folkert van Wijk
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2005 12:44 am Post subject: Re: Some custom Celtic spearpoints |
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| Nathan Bell wrote: | I thought a few of you might be interested in seeing these, now that they are all done.
These are hand-forged custom Celtic spearpoints made by John Heinz of Herugrim ironworks.
The large "flamberge" spearhead is based on the Octroi de Beaucaire find.
The gap-edged spear (some suggest a very stylized crane/heron head in shape) is based on one found at La Tene.
The small wave-bladed spear is based on a (unprovenanced?) 1st century BC British find. This may again be a stylized crane/heron/kingfisher form.
Hope a few of you enjoy looking.
N |
Hi Nathe
I do enjoy seeing these.
These spear points look great!
Is it possible to gife some sizes and weights???
Are they sharp? have you tryed them somehowe?
The little one lookes like something to throw with, but then again what use woult it's waviness have??
As soon as I am home (from work), I will be looking them up in the books and start comparing them..
Folkert
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2005 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Beautiful, Nate!
I am especially fond of the top two, although the smaller head is also endearing in its own way. What are the inside measurements of the sockets?
David
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2005 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for the comments (spears and sword )
I am not sure whether the wavy edges affect the wound channel, however, the contemporary Roman writer Diodorus wrote of celtic spears with a wavy edge which not only cut but "tore and mangled" the flesh. So at least some of the Celts' opponents thoght they caused more damge!
With respect to the center spear from La Tene, the barbed notches likely would tear the flesh rather than leave a nice thin cut, thus opening the wound channel and making a wound that bled more, and was harder to heal cleanly....nasty business!
Clearly, the visual intimidation factor is there!
I have the dimensions of the smaller one listed in "my collection"; I hope to do the same for the others. (yes, eventually my Jarl will be there as well---still a good handful of things I have not in "my collection").
I can say that these spears are very light, but with a strong midrib. The midrib is thick, but still has distal taper. The edges are thin, almost butcher knife thin, as appropriate, and are quite sharp. I was doing a bit of polish and clean up on the larger flame-blade and managed to cut the ka-snickens out of myself multiple times, often with knowing I had done it
Folkert---the smaller one is classified as a "javelin", but it's not clear whether it really was. The complete spears at La Tene, with 2m. shafts, were found to have heads on them that were rather small, and otherwise might have been classed as javelins. When you look at your Gournay II, and map out the measurements of some of these, you might see interesting things, too. Short, wide spears with relatively more edge than point---more suited to cutting thrusts than high-penetration stabs, yet the size would make one think "javelin".
One answer might be that the smaller heads that look like they are suited to a nasty cut or stab were meant for the longer (conical sectioned) shafts---making it easier to wield, strike and maneur with accuracy due to the small head.
NOte the smaller one has waves not just in profile taper, but has undulations when viewed edge-on. Perhaps again to open a bigger, messier wound?
These will all get mounted up entually, but I am not yet set on what style to mount them.
Stats to follow later when I am home, and this weekend I will have access to Chad A's accurate scale.
Thanks,
N
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Bell wrote: |
I have the dimensions of the smaller one listed in "my collection"; I hope to do the same for the others. (yes, eventually my Jarl will be there as well---still a good handful of things I have not in "my collection").
Stats to follow later when I am home, and this weekend I will have access to Chad A's accurate scale.
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Yeah, Nate's collection is pretty vast and continuing to expand. What's listed on this site for his collection is just what we decided to put together for the initial launch. There are a lot more that we'll add as time goes on.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2005 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Bell wrote: | The edges are thin, almost butcher knife thin, as appropriate, and are quite sharp. I was doing a bit of polish and clean up on the larger flame-blade and managed to cut the ka-snickens out of myself multiple times, often with knowing I had done it
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Nathan - Perhaps we should remind you that blood is NOT an optimum polishing agent.  I rely on the excuse of still being a relative newby to explain the  fresh scars on my fingers.
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Large Flamberge spear:
BL: 13.25" or 33.6 cm
BW at widest: just under 2.75" or 6.9 cm.
OL: 16.25" or41.2cm
socket inside diameter: just under 7/8" or 1.9cm
Gap-edged spear:
BL: 12" or 30.45cm
BW at widest: 2 1/8" or 5.35cm
OL: 13 7/8" or35.2cm
socket inside diameter: 5/8" or about 17cm
I must also include design credit, Steven Peffley did some very painstaking design work, including some computer modeling and ratio studies to model these spears. Originally, he had done mock-ups of these and several others for Albion, to have made in India. He since substantially updated the designs and revised them, resulting in the schematics for these spears. Also some basic mucking around with spear and shields at Marching Thorugh Time and Roman Days gave us some more dynamic insights.
Steve, yeah blood is not only a very bad polishing agent, it's downright counterproductive. Came back from some traveling to find some mysterious staining on one blade, that I had to polish out....at first I thought "where the heck did all this blotchy patina come from?  Then I remembered, "oh yeah......  "
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Folkert van Wijk
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| Posted: Fri 18 Mar, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: Spears |
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Hi guys
Let me put down an interesting quotation out of the Gournay II book; (page 238 bottom paragraph
| Quote: | A variant shape with a flame ornamented with openwork would be a proper type during two centuries. In this case, the external aspect of the spear-head could be the mark of the rank or the special function of the person who held it. This is obvious when the openwork ornament of some specimen makes the use of the spear difficult for fighting.
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What do you think of that??
Something else;
a socket inside diameter: just under 7/8" or 1.9cm, or even 1,7 cm
isn't that small?? I mean even the pole of my garden broom is thicker than that...
Handling a pole that thin would feel awkward, Or would they use thicker poles, and then thin de pole down at the tip in order to accommodate the spearpoint, then again, that place of attagement would be the weakest point of the whole weapon wouldn't it?
Nathan, The flamberge spear is that one based up on the drawing in the gournay II book page 123 drawing #6 ???
Folkert
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Fri 18 Mar, 2005 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Folkert van Wijk wrote: | Hi guys
Let me put down an interesting quotation out of the Gournay II book; (page 238 bottom paragraph
| Quote: | A variant shape with a flame ornamented with openwork would be a proper type during two centuries. In this case, the external aspect of the spear-head could be the mark of the rank or the special function of the person who held it. This is obvious when the openwork ornament of some specimen makes the use of the spear difficult for fighting.
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What do you think of that??
Something else;
a socket inside diameter: just under 7/8" or 1.9cm, or even 1,7 cm
isn't that small?? I mean even the pole of my garden broom is thicker than that...
Handling a pole that thin would feel awkward, Or would they use thicker poles, and then thin de pole down at the tip in order to accommodate the spearpoint, then again, that place of attagement would be the weakest point of the whole weapon wouldn't it?
Nathan, The flamberge spear is that one based up on the drawing in the gournay II book page 123 drawing #6 ???
Folkert |
Hi Folkert,
The flame spear is the same one that is drawn in Gournay, however, Dechelette has a better drawing of the piece, most other replicas, and even the Gournay sketch "smoothed out" the curves a bit, so it looks more like a "modern" Malayan kris....the original spearpoint is more like this, and how Dechelette shows it, with "fatter" rounded curves....
It's very possible that this was a "prestige" spearhead to show rank. These more special spearpoints can go to extremes, I.M. Stead in his "The Gauls: antiquities from ancient france " shows a couple spearpoints that have so many cut-outs they are virtually unusable....one is so punched with circular holes that it looks like a "Swiss cheese" spear.
On the other hand, the biggest fallback for all archaeologists when they don't know the prupose of an object is to say "ritual object" or "object with symbolic significance"
As to socket size: I have found, looking at some spears in museums (not only celtic, but anglo saxon, viking, bronze age) that the sockets are usually significantly smaller in diameter than modern reproductions. A number of others I have talked to have noticed/pointed out the same thing. I have also found this trend carried out to 19th century African spears (I have a few), spears that were made when they were still being used as actual weapons....smaller sockets, usually under 1".
What this says for the shaft is not completely clear---looking at Gournay you can see that both a "barrelled" shaft and a "conical" shaft can be used, which means that the diameter at the head is smaller than the main body of the shaft. However, it could just be that these are meant to be smaller, lighter and quicker weapons--a lesson we have been learneing in the repro sword world for a little while now.
One thing it can mean is that the spear as a hafted weapon was not necessarily being used as a "staff weapon" in the sense that it is not really going to used like a quarterstaff....
But hafting the spearpoint up on a proper diameter/tapering spearshaft can give a person entirely new perspective and respect for the spear! If only you lived closer, I could show you what I mean...Shane Alle and I and Steven Peffley and I have been able to have a sort of hands-on discussion about this at times, and I have also discussed the ideas back and forth with Brett Stark and a bit with Patrick K. and Peter J. up at Albion....You can get a whole new sense of the spear when it is not attached to a 1 1/2" shaft with no taper.
More later, gotta run....
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Darwin Todd
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| Posted: Sun 20 Mar, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: Love em! |
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Those are really cool Nathan! I can't wait to see them mounted. Can you tell us if they are heat treated or not? For that matter do we know if the originals were or not?
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Love em! |
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| Darwin Todd wrote: | | Those are really cool Nathan! I can't wait to see them mounted. Can you tell us if they are heat treated or not? For that matter do we know if the originals were or not? |
Hi Darwin,
Yes, these replicas are heat-treated. I have not personally read any articles on the metallurgy of the spears (I am at least not seeing it in English, and I have not totally translated a couple of sources). I would almost assume work-hardening, though, seems that would occur almost naturally in getting the edges so thin, if the phosphorus and other trace elements were present in high enough degree.
These are currently at Chad's where they will be photographed in the next weeks.
Thanks for the kind words,
N
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Nate do you have any intention of mounting these on shafts, or just leaving them as is?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Nate do you have any intention of mounting these on shafts, or just leaving them as is? |
Yeah, I ntend to mount them up. I didn't mount them up before taking them over to Chad's for the obvious reasons of ease of transport!
The other thing is that I need to decide hpw to mount them, in what "style" for lack of a better word.
On the larger ones, do I want to mount them up as fighting spears, and have a longer 7' ash shaft, likely a barrel taper and conical buttcap, treated and impreganated with linseed oil and beeswax? OTOH, Steven mentioned the other day that perhaps all the gap-edged spears may have been primarily javelins, with the idea that a fighting spear one would not want the jags to catch on clothing and potentially disarm you. In that case, I would be mounting on a shorter sfat, tapere so the balance point is 2/3 back or so, with a groove for a throwing thong, likely less finish or oiling to the shaft, and a buttcap maybe unnecessary.....Or something in between, with the idea of single combat between lightly armoured or unarmoured warriors, a shorter fighting spear to be used in difficult "hero feat" moves, but balanced so it can be thrown in a final coup de grace?
On the smaller point, it's basically the decision to mount it as either a javelin, or as one of the significantly longer fighting spears, with a short and light point to facilitate tip control and point placement for a stab/slash......
Decisions, decisions *G*
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Bell wrote: | | ...Steven Peffley did some very painstaking design work, including some computer modeling and ratio studies to model these spears. Originally, he had done mock-ups of these and several others for Albion, to have made in India. He since substantially updated the designs and revised them.... |
I guess that the Indian-made mock-ups are those "Experiments Gone Horribly Awry" shown on the Albion Moat website.
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Jeanry Chandler
Location: New Orleans, Louisiana Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Alexi;
The waviness might just be stylistic but might have uses when parrying and might work a bit like giant serrations?
Funny, I read somewhere that these wavy edges had no enhanced cutting capabilities when applied to large twohanders by some "expert" in some book ! ( don't remember where though )
I tend to disagree with that idea: In a chop these waves may not do much, but I would think they would be very agressive in a draw cut. Not sure if the Ivory tower type who said they had no practical use was just repeating what some other Ivory tower type may have written 50 years before.
Also, these points just look mean! And the psychological factor, fear of being run through by one of these, could be in part the reason for the wavy lines. |
We were discussing the existence of serrations on flammard, flamberge and other sword types a while back, and I personally belive that you are correct, they are for enhancing draw-cutting ability. I believe certain folks are going to be doing some test cutting experiments in the future which should shed some light on this.
DB
"A strong people do not ned a strong leader."
Emiliano Zapata
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