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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2005 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With all due respect, I don't think we can so easily categorize things as "one handed axes are inferior to swords." Swords are very versatile, but so are axes of all shapes and sizes. You can hook shields with the blade of an axe, something that can't be done with a sword for example.

That being said, there is often a saying that goes with armor - it is a trade off between protection and portability. The same is true of offensive weapons. There is a trade off between firepower (in every conceivable way) and portability. An axe might have more "firepower" than a sword, but it might also be a bit slower or perhaps less versatile. These are possibilities. The fact remains however that this trade off is a choice. So a swordsman who loses to an axeman with a single-handed axe doesn't have to be screwing up. He made a choice and decided that he would rather have greater speed and reach and better thrusting capability. This doesn't mean that the axeman made a poor choice when he selected a slower, more powerful weapon. So often, tastes are suited to the individual. One of my training partners works out a great deal and can bench press about 2.5x what I can. A one handed axe in his hands really won't be appreciably slower than an oakeshott type X in mine.

Humans aren't identical, that's why our weapons aren't identical. The axe certainly has deficiencies in certain areas, but it has compensating strengths in other areas. I don't think we can qualitatively decide that one weapon is inherently superior in a given situation because then we fail to take into account the human factor.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While a full force swing with an axe would be able to do a substantial amount of damage to an armoured opponent, this kind of bow has a nasty tendency never to reach their target. They are usualy blocked before they get that far.

My impression and experience is that fighing take place either at spearlength, or in close combat. A fighter standing at sword/axelengt against an enemy armed with spears, will die quite quickly.
He will also have a hard time hurting anyone, because of the enemy shields.
He will thus either stay back, and focus on keeping his own spearmen alive, or enter close combat. (the romans opted for the later strategy when they stopped equiping the legions with Hasta)

The tendency when it comes to anti-armour hand sword are the ability to stab in close combat; short stabbing swords like the XIa, XIV, XV, and so on, as well as half sword techniques.
The anti armour impact weapons, such as maces or picks, are also quite short. My guess is that the mace or pick user would also go directly for a bind/grapple, to get his opponent into a position where he can hit him repeatedly in the head untill he stops moving. Manouverably and attack rate take priority over the power of the individual blows.

So, conversly, a short handled axe would be pretty effective against an armoured opponent, up close, hiting for the unprotected face and under the helmet.
If you stand at reach, your opponent is most likely going to block and close YOU.
On the other hand, much of the same effect can be achieved with the pommel of a sword...

Just my toughts on killing people in armour...

Yours
Elling
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Lloyd Clark




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If the networks would just pick up my idea for "Death Row Gladiators" we could have all the answers we need and a hit television show to boot Wink
Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alina Boyden wrote:
With all due respect, I don't think we can so easily categorize things as "one handed axes are inferior to swords." Swords are very versatile, but so are axes of all shapes and sizes. You can hook shields with the blade of an axe, something that can't be done with a sword for example.


While I agree that we should not make blanket statements about one weapon being better than other in every situation, I want to clarify that the sword could be used to hook things up if held by the blade and using the cross as a hook. Such techniques are described in period fighting manuals. The sword was used (in the examples I am aware) to hook the leg of the opponent.


Alexi
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
Alina Boyden wrote:
With all due respect, I don't think we can so easily categorize things as "one handed axes are inferior to swords." Swords are very versatile, but so are axes of all shapes and sizes. You can hook shields with the blade of an axe, something that can't be done with a sword for example.


While I agree that we should not make blanket statements about one weapon being better than other in every situation, I want to clarify that the sword could be used to hook things up if held by the blade and using the cross as a hook. Such techniques are described in period fighting manuals. The sword was used (in the examples I am aware) to hook the leg of the opponent.


Alexi


True enough, but I was referring to earlier sword and shield styles when the axe was at the peak of its popularity.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alina Boyden:
Quote:
With all due respect, I don't think we can so easily categorize things as "one handed axes are inferior to swords."


As a Silverist, I tend to think we can, at least for the set situation of a duel. Big Grin I've never seen a one handed axe anywhere near perfect length - most seem to have been around two feed long (and top heavy). Against that, a well balanced three foot sword would have the advantage, as a sword as just as lethal (if not more lethal) to an unarmoured man. But of course it changes if we're talking about any kind of armour...

Elling Polden:
Quote:
My impression and experience is that fighing take place either at spearlength


Well, at least in the earlier part of period in question, spears most commonly were used with shields. How much reach can you get out a spear with a one handed grip? More than with a five or six foot axe?

Alexi Goranov:
Quote:
sword could be used to hook things up if held by the blade and using the cross as a hook.


That's true longswords and such, but sounds rather hard to do when fighting with a shield and one handed sword...
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:

Alexi Goranov:
Quote:
sword could be used to hook things up if held by the blade and using the cross as a hook.


That's true longswords and such, but sounds rather hard to do when fighting with a shield and one handed sword...


The examples I alluded to are of H&H swords used without shields. Someone familiar with I:33 should comment on whether there are similar techniques there.

Alexi
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2005 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:

Alexi Goranov:
Quote:
sword could be used to hook things up if held by the blade and using the cross as a hook.


That's true longswords and such, but sounds rather hard to do when fighting with a shield and one handed sword...


The examples I alluded to are of H&H swords used without shields. Someone familiar with I:33 should comment on whether there are similar techniques there.

Alexi


I haven't seen any hooking with the sword in I.33. There's a whole lot of "shield-knocking" though.
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