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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Sun 08 May, 2005 10:29 pm    Post subject: Celtic La Tène swords         Reply with quote

Would the "TEMPL Historic Arms Iron Age Celtic Sword" as seen at http://www.myArmoury.com/review_tmpl_celt.html be known as a Celtic La Tène type II Sword?

Does anyone know what a La Tène type I Sword looks like? I've searched the net and couldn't find any information and pictures on a type I sword.

Are there are types of La Tène swords?
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Patrick Kelly




PostPosted: Sun 08 May, 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This sword is solidly in the middle of the La Tene II period.

Neat sword.

"I'd rather go upriver with 7 studs, than a 100 sh!theads." - COL Charlie Beckwith, founder SFODD
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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Sun 08 May, 2005 10:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick

Excuse my ignorance as I don't know much about the La Tène period.

Are you saying that it is classified as a Type II sword or that it isn't?
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Patrick Kelly




PostPosted: Sun 08 May, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
Patrick

Excuse my ignorance as I don't know much about the La Tène period.

Are you saying that it is classified as a Type II sword or that it isn't?


It is. Big Grin

"I'd rather go upriver with 7 studs, than a 100 sh!theads." - COL Charlie Beckwith, founder SFODD
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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Sun 08 May, 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick

Thanks for that. I don't suppose you know what a type I sword is?

Would a type I be the "Anthropomorphic hilted sword" or am I way off base.
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Patrick Kelly




PostPosted: Sun 08 May, 2005 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Bell, the owner of this particular sword, would be the one to ask. Nate's a wealth of knowledge about all things La Tene.

Hopefully he'll chime in.

"I'd rather go upriver with 7 studs, than a 100 sh!theads." - COL Charlie Beckwith, founder SFODD
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Nathan Bell




PostPosted: Mon 09 May, 2005 6:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Danny,

The numbered "Type" system is used by a couple of authors (I thunk perhaps it was Piggot who originated it, one for Continet and one for Britain?)....however the most commonly used classification system makes reference to the phases of La Tene, (a very famous find site) and are categorized chronologically. Mnay European authors use a lettered system with subnumbers (i.e. La Tene C1), while other use a number system (La Tene I, La Tene II, etc.) Still others use simple terms of Early, Middle, and Late La Tene.

I am assuming you are comparing the Templ sword to Albion's current First Generation celtic sword offering. The answer to the question is yes, both makers are trying to replicate a Middle La Tene sword, or La Tene II sword...what have you.

La Tene I swords, or Early La Tene swords....these tend to be shorter overall, a shorter tang relative to blade length, broader at the base, more sharply tapering with a dramatic taper the last 1/3 of the blade, cross section almost always a strong flattened diamond or with raised midrib. This is roughly speaking.

Anthropoid "swords" are not really classified on the same system, they exist throughout the La Tene periods as a rare, very rare anomoly. they tend to be very short, sharply pointed, with an all mettallic hilt, regardless of how the swords int he corresponding time period look. They are very scarce int he record, compared to more "typical" celtic swords, tough you wouldn't know it by today's replica market.

Does this answer what you were trying to get at?
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Mon 09 May, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Celtic La Tène swords         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
.

Does anyone know what a La Tène type I Sword looks like? I've searched the net and couldn't find any information and pictures on a type I sword.




Hi Danny...

I have compiled a group photo of LaTene blades from the photo archive (most from Navarro) trying to place them in a relative chronological order getting older in a clockwise direction. (however the three with scabbards in the upper left I would probably put with the middle LaTene blades if I did it over again). Anyway, for what its worth, there are probably a few good examples of early LaTene 1 blades in the upper left corner.

Hope it helps

ks



 Attachment: 83.21 KB, Viewed: 4065 times
CollectionLTFinish.jpg


Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Gabriel Stevens




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PostPosted: Tue 10 May, 2005 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Damn Kirk that's a nice composite.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Tue 10 May, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriel Stevens wrote:
Damn Kirk that's a nice composite.



Thanks Gabriel...

This was done from photocopied pictures without considering any of the chronological data... At the time I was just interested in getting an idea of the range of blade design that could still be considered LaTene. Thus it is more of a design composite, however I think it follows the chronological trends as a first approximation. Nate B. has inspired me to be a little more exacting. So I have gone back to Navarro to try and put the blades into a more detailed chronological sequence. It will be chore since I will need to match the swords in the plates with his descriptions and chronology from the catalogue. I am curious to see how different the trends will look with the scabbard chronological data added into the mix.

take care

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Tue 10 May, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Bell wrote:
Hi Danny,

The numbered "Type" system is used by a couple of authors (I thunk perhaps it was Piggot who originated it, one for Continet and one for Britain?)....however the most commonly used classification system makes reference to the phases of La Tene, (a very famous find site) and are categorized chronologically. Mnay European authors use a lettered system with subnumbers (i.e. La Tene C1), while other use a number system (La Tene I, La Tene II, etc.) Still others use simple terms of Early, Middle, and Late La Tene.

I am assuming you are comparing the Templ sword to Albion's current First Generation celtic sword offering. The answer to the question is yes, both makers are trying to replicate a Middle La Tene sword, or La Tene II sword...what have you.

La Tene I swords, or Early La Tene swords....these tend to be shorter overall, a shorter tang relative to blade length, broader at the base, more sharply tapering with a dramatic taper the last 1/3 of the blade, cross section almost always a strong flattened diamond or with raised midrib. This is roughly speaking.

Anthropoid "swords" are not really classified on the same system, they exist throughout the La Tene periods as a rare, very rare anomoly. they tend to be very short, sharply pointed, with an all mettallic hilt, regardless of how the swords int he corresponding time period look. They are very scarce int he record, compared to more "typical" celtic swords, tough you wouldn't know it by today's replica market.

Does this answer what you were trying to get at?



Nathan, thanks for the information. It clears up quite a bit for me.

So has anyone created any replica early or late La Tène swords? If so does anyone have pics to post so we (I) can see the differences.
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Nathan Bell




PostPosted: Wed 11 May, 2005 4:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:

So has anyone created any replica early or late La Tène swords? If so does anyone have pics to post so we (I) can see the differences.


Here is a sort of layout of various types and phases of celtic swords:



These are made by Banfi Celtic Arts. I tend to think he has made the hiltwork a bit over-simplified and austere, and there are a number of other issues I could raise with them.....But it should give you an idea of size/ blade shape. The extreme left most sword is Early La Tene. The extreme right-hand sword is late La Tene.

Not too many makers of any celtic swords out there, let alone Early and La te La Tene. Kirk is working on hilting up an Early La Tene blade (is that done yet, Kirk?) I have a custom Early La Tene sword being made currently, but of course no pictures because it's not finished.

Here is a very nice late La Tene by HR Replikate:


Hope this helps...
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Shane Allee




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PostPosted: Wed 11 May, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk if you are planning to redo your composition could you also address the issue of scale to one another? Even in Navarro the images aren't all to scale with one another, so there are some problems with length and width going on in the composition. The wide cutting late La Tene II or La Tene III blades may have been 2 1/4" wide or so, but because these are also longer blades they appear to be the most narrow when they were not. It wouldn't be easy to do, but you could fix this by picking a scale to use and using only examples that you have a known measurement of the sword to be able to adjust the sword to fit the chosen scale.

Shane
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Justin H. Núñez




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Celtic La Tène swords         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
Danny Grigg wrote:
.

Does anyone know what a La Tène type I Sword looks like? I've searched the net and couldn't find any information and pictures on a type I sword.




Hi Danny...

I have compiled a group photo of LaTene blades from the photo archive (most from Navarro) trying to place them in a relative chronological order getting older in a clockwise direction. (however the three with scabbards in the upper left I would probably put with the middle LaTene blades if I did it over again). Anyway, for what its worth, there are probably a few good examples of early LaTene 1 blades in the upper left corner.

Hope it helps

ks





The blade with what looks like a floral motif on the blade is very interesting. It's in the lower right hand group. I wonder if that was a common thing to do?

"Nothing in fencing is really difficult, it just takes work." - Aldo Nadi
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Anders Backlund




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Celtic La Tène swords         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
Danny Grigg wrote:
.

Does anyone know what a La Tène type I Sword looks like? I've searched the net and couldn't find any information and pictures on a type I sword.




Hi Danny...

I have compiled a group photo of LaTene blades from the photo archive (most from Navarro) trying to place them in a relative chronological order getting older in a clockwise direction. (however the three with scabbards in the upper left I would probably put with the middle LaTene blades if I did it over again). Anyway, for what its worth, there are probably a few good examples of early LaTene 1 blades in the upper left corner.

Hope it helps

ks


I like the decorative pattern on number sixteen from the lower right.
(EDIT: The floral one Justin mentioned right above.) I'd love to see a closer picture. Where did you say this archive was?

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Shane Allee




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You would want to look for The Finds of the Site of La Tene by Navarro. What you are seeing is a design on the scabbard, not the blade. From a distance it does look floral, but is really a series of bird heads which also match some of the other scabbard fittings with the same theme.

Shane
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb, 2009 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure the floral motif you are seeing is actually on the scabbard rather than a bare blade.

Edit: Whoops, Shane beat me to it. That'll teach me to hit refresh before posting.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb, 2009 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Celtic La Tène swords         Reply with quote

Anders Backlund wrote:


I like the decorative pattern on number sixteen from the lower right.
(EDIT: The floral one Justin mentioned right above.) I'd love to see a closer picture. Where did you say this archive was?


Hey Anders...

Here is a closer picture.

Shane is right the image were compiled from plates in De Navarro.

"The finds from the site of La Tène. Scabbards and the swords found in them"‎
by J. M. De Navarro


ks



 Attachment: 60.89 KB, Viewed: 3338 times
Automatic-Photo-Feeder0022.jpg
Image from De Navarro. "Finds from the site La Tene."

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Anders Backlund




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Feb, 2009 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Celtic La Tène swords         Reply with quote

Shane Allee wrote:
You would want to look for The Finds of the Site of La Tene by Navarro. What you are seeing is a design on the scabbard, not the blade.


Too bad, I like it when decorated blades show up.

Quote:
From a distance it does look floral, but is really a series of bird heads which also match some of the other scabbard fittings with the same theme.

Shane

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:


Hey Anders...

Here is a closer picture.

Shane is right the image were compiled from plates in De Navarro.

"The finds from the site of La Tène. Scabbards and the swords found in them"‎
by J. M. De Navarro


ks


Hm, even up close, I still think it looks like a plant.[/i]

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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