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Joachim Nilsson
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 Posted: Thu 26 May, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | OK, Feel free to pick what I'm about to say apart, I have a theory, and part of the scientific process is to find flaws in ideas.
I have a theory on "What happened to Lance's blade."
Now, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, the big half centimeter chip came out of the blade when he was swinging at a pork leg that had been thrown at him. Correct?
He hit it, the blade went in a little, and then the pork leg fell the other way to the ground.
We know bones harden after death, even so, I think what happened was this. NO OFFENCE TO LANCE!
Lance smacked the pork leg, but not hard enough to cut it in two, since he didn't really have enough resistance to chop it in two. When he hit it, his blade embedded slightly in the bone. The bone 'stopped' in the air, and then started moving the other direction, and at some point in this, it twisted.
When the pork, and of course the bone that lance had 'just' penetrated, twisted, it was like putting a tiny bit of the blade in a vice, and then twisting the blade.
I 'suspect' things would have been differnt if he had say, hung up a whole pig and chopped it in two, since the blade would be moving through the whole, and would have split anything in it's path, rather then getting a bone on just the edge, and then twisting it away.
Since Lance actually wound up with an EXTRA sharp blade, (as Albion beleived that's what he truely wanted,) his sword was extra vunerable to this sort of thing.
What do you guys think? |
Sounds feasible enought to me.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 26 May, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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George, no offence taken. Here're a couple snapshot from the video itself. I did cut the pork arm into two in the midair.
Before
After cut
Sorry for the low resolution. I lost the original DV already.
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 26 May, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | ...
What do you guys think? |
George,
I think other people have already provided viable examinations of this situation without having to lean so heavily on what if scenarios.
So what answer are you really looking for?
This thread was started (by you) after your original thread on the topic got closed at SFI. The SFI threads which you reference in your intitial post in this thread contain quite a bit of good discussion, including posts from at least three top blade makers providing their professional assessment. When the threads you started on this topic are combined with Lance's, some of which you again reference in this thread, I believe we have one of the most complete discussions of a single event in the life of a modern sword reproduction I've seen on any forum. If we could somehow consolidate the discussion, the resulting thread would contain input from novice and experienced collectors, customers, WMA folks, and most importantly, other reputable sword makers (the professionals).
So I really am curious, what are you looking for at this point?
Very complete and very good discussion has been provided here and at SFI. Some guided by people who are considered experts commenting in their field, and as has been noted, a few more by people who are something less than experts. Yet you still seem to be searching for something.
What are you really trying to find that has not already be dissected? 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Thu 26 May, 2005 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | George Hill wrote: | ...
What do you guys think? |
This thread was started (by you) after your original thread on the topic got closed at SFI. : |
Actually, I started it DURING the other thread. Not after. I did it at the same time before I thought the folks here might have something to contribute to my understanding of the situation.
Furthermore, you sound accusitory. As if I was run off from one place and came to another. This is not at all the case.
What I am doing is trying to learn about old european weapons and their reproductions.
There is always something to be learned, and I also like thrid party examiniation of my ideas. Whilst I confess I don't like being wrong, if I don't run them past a communities, I run the risk of establishing elebroate scientific models in my head, which whilst perfectly logical, are also well explained by other ideas which might lead to a more correct understanding.
Lance, You disproved my theory! Dang, I really though that was what happened. Oh well. Thanks anyway.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: |
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[quote="George Hill"][quote="Joe Fults"] | George Hill wrote: | ...
Furthermore, you sound accusitory. As if I was run off from one place and came to another. This is not at all the case.
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George,
Anybody taking the time to read the threads knows you were not run from one place to the other. 
If my intent was accusatory, I would have included one of these  for clarity.
Regardless, after reading all the threads, IMO you have a very complete and mostly polite examination of the topic. Let me repeat, a very complete examination. In my experience, when things get to this point and hypotheticals keep coming, people are stuck on some part of the discussion, and they are trying to resolve it.
However, I honestly can't figure out what you're tying to assimilate at this point.
Perhaps your best bet will be talking to folks at the Bladeshow, which you say you are attending. You'll get much more, much faster, because some communication only happens face to face. There are regular attendees that know their stuff, some of whom rarely post anyplace. In my experience nearly all are willing to share their knowledge, time, and experience in ways that are hard to duplicate online. In many cases all you have to do to get a professional assessment, is walk up, introduce yourself, ask, and then listen. 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Fri 27 May, 2005 7:44 am; edited 3 times in total
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
Location: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 717
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I have hesitated to jump into this, for fear of seeming defensive or in any way seeming to belittle Lance or his test cutting methodology. I have no issues with what Lance did or his public posting of the results. My only disappointment in this is that some people read far too much into this.
As the maker of the sword in question, are we happy about this? No.
Are we doing a lot of self-examination? Yes.
Do we plan on trying to improve? Always.
Will we ever be able to make Lance perfectly happy? Most likely not. This is partly because he is so far away and shipping is prohibitive for both of us.
The other reasons for this have nothing to do with whether we strive to bring our customers the most authentic, functional recreations possible. The problems Lance has experienced are primarily created by that very goal. We don't use "space age" materials, we use the closest modern equivalent to what would have been found in a period original.
As a result, if you drop the sword on to a hard floor, the components will suffer scratches and deformation. The same from zippers or other metal objects the sword may come in contact with. The more detail in the component, the more likely it is to be damaged. (Try dropping a Ferrari nose down the same 2 ft distance and see what that does versus a Ford from the 1940's.) If you cut dead bone, you may very well have to rehone or otherwise restore the edge. (Personally, if I had cut clean through someone's arm or leg bone in combat, I'd be impressed even if there was minor damage to the edge, but that's just me.)
This minor damage from hard use is nothing peculiar to Albion or even to Western swords -- I saw a skilled practitioner in the early 70's break a katana, made by a famous Japanese maker that cost as much as a new car did then, just cutting tatami. Did that lead me to believe that Japanese swords were inferior, or that the maker's work was inferior? No. It could have been a flaw in the steel, it could have been a really bad cut (it happens even to experts.)
We, as a rule, bend over backwards to make sure our customers are happy, and we guarantee our swords for life against defects in materials and workmanship. Our customers can attest that we always err on their side of an issue when it comes to the question "is this abuse or wear and tear, or is this covered by our warranty." We value our customers and regard them as friends.
I applaud Lance's efforts to push the edge of the envelope and really show the fearful damage that a Medieval sword could do -- it is very sobering, makes us respect those early warriors even more than we always have. It also helps counter the old chestnut that these feats, such as cutting through bone in mid-air, can only be accomplished by a katana.
Let's focus on the positive, learn from these experiences and continue to expand our knowledge and improve.
Best,
Howy
Albion
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
Last edited by Howard Waddell on Fri 27 May, 2005 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Here is an example of what happened to the edge of a 15th c sword I have personally examined . While i do not know what caused this damage or when (though some of the damage is clearly done my some other sharp object), the edge of this sword is so thin it reminds me of a razor. definitely not a war sword, in which it parallels the Brescia Sapadona.
i have another picture somewhere of a severe chip of the edge of the same sword, which I will post as soon as i find it.
So damage happened even to the period originals.
alexi
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I've been following this thread with some interest and as a collector of original items i'm not entirely sure why anything other than "so thats what happens to a sword when its used for its purpose or some simulation of it" would be got out of Lancelots test, certainly not "that sword failed". Most of the blades we have have bellies in them from heavy grinding to remove knicking from use and a few have the odd little chunk out of the cutting edge. I've owned a piece of two of armour over the years that had damage from use as well. It just seems common sense to me that when you start whacking with or on hard things "somethings "going to happen to the whacker, the whackie or both. To my mind Lances test just bears out what i've observed in some of the originals we've been fortunate enough to handle over the years. My 2 cents keeping in mind i'm not to bright.
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Sean Flynt
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | Katanas and light sabers can cut through any and all matter without damage, so what's the problem with all these lousy Western swords?    |
You don't get it do you? Lightsabers ARE western swords.
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Sean Flynt
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | A LONG, LONG TIME FROM NOW
IN A GALAXY FAR, FAR AWAY
THE FORCES OF GOOD AND EVIL
ENGAGE IN MORTAL COMBAT AT
LIGHTSABERFORUM.COM.... |
Oh... my... God...
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 8:14 am Post subject: |
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I really needed a good laugh. Thank you Sean.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Now that we've heard from the sword's owner, the manufacturer, and everyone else in between I'm begining to agree with Michael and Joe.
I think it's time to move on folks.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Fri 27 May, 2005 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: | Here is an example of what happened to the edge of a 15th c sword I have personally examined . While i do not know what caused this damage or when (though some of the damage is clearly done my some other sharp object), the edge of this sword is so thin it reminds me of a razor. definitely not a war sword, in which it parallels the Brescia Sapadona.
i have another picture somewhere of a severe chip of the edge of the same sword, which I will post as soon as i find it.
So damage happened even to the period originals.
alexi |
Interisting picture you have there. thanks.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Patrick Fitzmartin
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings All, No disrespect intended as we got the "move on" notice. I would however like to add this bit. I had a very "stupid", very gentle "accident" with my DT 2070 and my Albion Squire Line Viking. Both are sharpened. They wound up "bumping" edge to edge.  The result was a minute ding on the edge of both swords that could be honed out very easily. Was I upset? A little bit. Did I want to throw both swords away? No. It bore out much that was stated in this thread. It was educational with a bit of a "doh" factor. These "items" we prize so much do have "certain" frailties that are the nature of the beast and need to be accepted.  Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin
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William J Welch
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 10:05 am Post subject: I too have had an edge failure with an albion |
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I also had an edge fail on an Albion sword but right now I am waiting to hear back from Albion, as they have not returned my Email yet. But I will be more than happy to relate what happened when I hear back from them.
I plan on bringing it to Atlanta with me Saturday.
Cheers Bill.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: I too have had an edge failure with an albion |
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| William J Welch wrote: | I also had an edge fail on an Albion sword but right now I am waiting to hear back from Albion, as they have not returned my Email yet. But I will be more than happy to relate what happened when I hear back from them.
I plan on bringing it to Atlanta with me Saturday.
Cheers Bill. |
May as well post it since you've already announced it.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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William J Welch
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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I have announced nothing,I was simply stating a fact.
I have not said, or accused anyone of anything, nor have I pointed a finger, nor have I stated any facts associated with the edge failure.
cheers
Bill
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Providing this information without context, in this thread, lends itselfs to a certain path of speculation. Providing context will prevent people from forming inaccurate assumptions regarding your experience.
Please share your experience with us, so that we can better understand what occured.
Respectfully,
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Sun 05 Jun, 2005 2:37 pm; edited 4 times in total
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