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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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 Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenneth Enroth wrote: | | If the historically accurate hardness ranges from the mid 30's to the mid 50's IMO modern swords should be in the upper range, not the lower. |
Yes indeed, we modern warriors must be sure our blades can stand up to those life threatening plastic bottles & pool noodles !
;-) Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Not scientific at all but after years of sharpening knives when I use a white ceramic hone I can get a very approximate estimate about how hard the steel is by how much bite I feel, not very precise but a 60rc feels like glass and a touch up on the edges of my Albions or A & A the drag, friction / cutting action feels more agressive than knives I know to be around 55rc.
A file won't cut into the steel much unless I apply pressure ( At least IF I applied pressure as I really didn't want to cut knotches into my blades  a light touch does almost nothing. )
A Windlass movie sword ( Scorpion King Kopesh ) is easily sharpened / cut by a file. Nice movie sword / awfull balance with the massive cast hilt. ( Brass I assume. )
The Windlass mentioned is softer than the Albions and A & A.
Naturally a specific sword might be softer or harder than what it was supposed to be because of some error 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'd caution everyone to avoid any kind of serious speculation until we've heard from Albion on this issue.
If Lance's sword is indeed in that Rc range it's too soft, regardless of what the maker is trying to achieve. In todays market customers simply will not accept a blade like that, and any modern sword maker will know this. With that in mind I'd think that something like this may have been unintentional on the part of the manufacturer.
Albion needs to step up and give some straight and clear answers to these issues at the earliest opportunity.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Marcos Cantu
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Do makers check the hardness of each blade at some point before it goes out the door?
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Here is something that does not click though. The Brecia Spadona's edge chipped but did not fold when it hit the bone as discussed on the other thread. this indicates that the blade was pretty hard.
Alexi
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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I know little about what I'm about to ask about, so be warned.
Since Albion grinds down bar stock (right?) to make their swords, that means the thing will be the same hardness all the way through, and WHERE on his blade Lance did his test wouldn't matter, right? Or am I missing something?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: | Here is something that does not click though. The Brecia Spadona's edge chipped but did not fold when it hit the bone as discussed on the other thread. this indicates that the blade was pretty hard.
Alexi |
Yes, that's a point I was thinking about too. Differential hardening perhaps?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | I know little about what I'm about to ask about, so be warned.
Since Albion grinds down bar stock (right?) to make their swords, that means the thing will be the same hardness all the way through, and WHERE on his blade Lance did his test wouldn't matter, right? Or am I missing something? |
Yes. You're missing a lot. Heat-treatment and shaping are two different things. There are articles on our site and elsewhere that explain the process of sword making.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | I know little about what I'm about to ask about, so be warned.
Since Albion grinds down bar stock (right?) to make their swords, that means the thing will be the same hardness all the way through, and WHERE on his blade Lance did his test wouldn't matter, right? Or am I missing something? |
No. The shaping of the blade, whether it be from stock removal (grinding/milling) or forging, has nothing to do with the blades hardness. That factor lies in the blades heat treatment.
Read this: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_groundpound.html
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | George Hill wrote: | I know little about what I'm about to ask about, so be warned.
Since Albion grinds down bar stock (right?) to make their swords, that means the thing will be the same hardness all the way through, and WHERE on his blade Lance did his test wouldn't matter, right? Or am I missing something? |
No. The shaping of the blade, whether it be from stock removal (grinding/milling) or forging, has nothing to do with the blades hardness. That factor lies in the blades heat treatment.
Read this: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_groundpound.html |
Yes I read it. I'm still missing something....
Basically, Does the heat treatment happen before or after the stock removal? if before, it's uniform all the way through.... But I don't know enough to know if that's even possible with swords.
If after, is it differntial? what sort of heat treatment does Albion use?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm... I wouldn't say my blade was chipped. It was "compressed" perpendicularly to the edge line and became blunt there. Not a piece flying off from the edge kind of damage. I never said it was chipped did I?
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David Kite
Location: Clinton, IN USA Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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My 2 cents.
1st, I have not seen the photos of Lance's Brescia, so I somewhat lack the aforementioned and all-important context and will let those facts stand as is.
However, until Albion or Peter can respond, here's a little info from me that hopefully won't add to the confusion.
I own an Albion Solingen, and for purposes of testing the sword, I put it through some hard target test-cutting within what I believe to be historical parameters (steel buckler, maille coif, sword blade flats). The edge was damaged somewhat, though not excessively and not outside of the damage a sword could be considered to receive during use. I sent photos to Albion and Peter, and John Clements has seen the sword in person, and all of them agree that the damage sustained was within historical parameters. (and now that I'm getting over the emotional shock of intentionally damaging a very fine $1000 sword, I can safely say I feel the same way)
The important information here is that in communications with Peter, he told me that the steel of Albion's Solingen is slightly harder than the original. Maybe (possibly) we can assume the same is true of all of Albion's blades and the Brescia's original would have suffered similar if not worse damage.
As has been said before, and if no one minds my repeating, this thread seems to be getting a little worked up, and if we're not careful things will get blown way out of proportion, so maybe everyone should just step away and take a deep breath until Albion or Peter can weigh in on this. (?)
2 cents
David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Marcos Cantu wrote: | | Do makers check the hardness of each blade at some point before it goes out the door? |
Marcus, I don't know, but you pose a good question.
I'd be surprised if they do though. Most quality controls I'm familiar with check a representative sample and not every possible measure on every part or transaction. Would be nice to know the answer, but it might be a topic better explored in a seperate thread.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I read it. I'm still missing something....
Basically, Does the heat treatment happen before or after the stock removal? if before, it's uniform all the way through.... But I don't know enough to know if that's even possible with swords.
If after, is it differntial? what sort of heat treatment does Albion use? |
Hi George,
In either forging or stock removal, most of the shaping is done prior to heat treatment. In both methods, there is further grinding and polishing following the heat treat and tempering processes.
Cheers
A note (to all) of speculation on whether the forte might have been left or drawn softer than the foible. I don't know if Lance checked futher out on the blade yet, or Albion's thoughts. The figure does seem on the low side but is it the whole length of the blade?
A second Huzzah and I wait with the others
GC
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Its the CURSE of holiday weekends that the ones who could answer best are not available.
I'm not overly concerned and maybe my own speculations are just the equivalent of pacing back and forth, " annoyingly " to anyone else watching, while waiting for a very late plane to finally arrive.  
So let not PANIC ......
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michael Pearce
Industry Professional
Location: Seattle, Wa. Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Don't panic? Why would anyone panic? I agree that this should not be blown out of proportion- it's one sword. I believe Albion heat treats in-house and heat treating swords is tricky- and no one is perfect. Let's just hang fire here- everyone else has had thier say. Now let's let the folks at Albion respond.
Michael 'Tinker' Pearce
-------------
Then one night, as my car was going backwards through a cornfield at 90mph, I had an epiphany...
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: |
Yes I read it. I'm still missing something....
Basically, Does the heat treatment happen before or after the stock removal? if before, it's uniform all the way through.... But I don't know enough to know if that's even possible with swords.
If after, is it differntial? what sort of heat treatment does Albion use? |
Hi George,
heat treatment in swords (as I understand it) is never 100% homogenious even if one is trying to achieve an even hardness. The thicker pards of the sword will generally be a few Rc softer as the heat does not penetrates as deeply. In other words thinner parts are usually harder. As a corollary, the blade geometry (and steel type) play an important role in the hardening properties of the blade.
Read this thread if you have not yet
Lance, sorry about the misunderstanding. I gathered that the edge chipped upon hitting the bone, and not that it compressed.
Cheers,
Alexi
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | Marcos Cantu wrote: | | Do makers check the hardness of each blade at some point before it goes out the door? |
Marcus, I don't know, but you pose a good question.
I'd be surprised if they do though. Most quality controls I'm familiar with check a representative sample and not every possible measure on every part or transaction. Would be nice to know the answer, but it might be a topic better explored in a seperate thread. |
Since I am one of the makers who's sword was tested..... My stuff is heat treated by a local aerospace heat treater, and each lot of blades is certified, which in this case means a representative sample is tested.
I further test them here, before they go out..... hardness is not an issue here {my occassional issue is finish}........
swords are fun
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | | Marcos Cantu wrote: | | Do makers check the hardness of each blade at some point before it goes out the door? |
Marcus, I don't know, but you pose a good question.
I'd be surprised if they do though. Most quality controls I'm familiar with check a representative sample and not every possible measure on every part or transaction. Would be nice to know the answer, but it might be a topic better explored in a seperate thread. |
Since I am one of the makers who's sword was tested..... My stuff is heat treated by a local aerospace heat treater, and each lot of blades is certified, which in this case means a representative sample is tested.
I further test them here, before they go out..... hardness is not an issue here {my occassional issue is finish}........ |
Angus,
Thanks for volunteering an answer, and your occasional issue has improved from what I have seen as time marches on.
Mods,
If it would be Ok with everyone I'd like to request this be a seperate thread.
I think it could be a very intersting topic, but it seems distracting as part of this thread.
Thanks.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: |
Mods, If it would be Ok with everyone I'd like to request this be a seperate thread.
I think it could be a very intersting topic, but it seems distracting as part of this thread.
Thanks. |
Which part should be a separate topic? This topic is about the relative heat-treat of various maker's blades. Which part would you separate?
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