[Lancelot Chan]

What I'm practicing is unarmored fighting so a dueling sword would do. In the sparring, a RSW model right after my own sword proved to be very effective fighting sword for me. Now it doesn't have those edge retention problem of course.

Besides edge hardness, upon talking to a friend today whose interests are in antique swords and knives, he wondered about edge toughness. He talked about a famous test presented by a smith whose name escaped from my memory about flexing a knife's edge on a brass rod and then the edge should be able to return true.

I think it may only be feasible on a thin knife edge but maybe other than HRC reading, we can take a look into the edge toughness in swords as well.

[Kenneth Enroth]

Will you do the same tests again on your replacement sword?

[Lancelot Chan]

Today I went to my friend Parke's house to do a hardness test on his Squireline 13th Century Warsword. The result was more consistent hardness along the blade length than my spadona, spotting the same number all along the length actually, and lower hardness right behind 0.25 inch of the edge line. I'll leave the full review for him to disclose, though.

Through this, I learned that my sword is indeed a special case.

I will do the same test on my replacement sword, without cutting the leather wrapped pork arm. After all, they were not "test" but my usual practice actually. I have swords that gone through them again and again without need for maintenance and that was how I honed my skill. I understand I will have to maintain the replacement sword more than my other sword, for this is the historical accuracy. I won't complain for it. I'll just report the result as plain as it is if anybody is interested. ( I guess many of you are tired of me already )

[Kenneth Enroth]

[Jesse Frank]

[Angus Trim]

[Joe Leung]

[Joe Leung]

[Nathan Robinson]

[Jean Thibodeau]

O.K. the test cut wasn't the THE killing stroke, but the body was still warm ( Gulp ) and bones had no time to dry out and harden.

If I remember a story I read the condemmed man said, something to the effect, that if he had known that the cut was going to be across the abdominal cavity: He would have swallowed a stone to ruin the sword.

The story didn't mention that he would be decapitated first. He may well have been decapitated first and these stories could be the ancient Japanese equivalent of an urban legend. ( Not an area where I can claim expertize. )

Also, in either case he probably died much faster than the usual execution method which I think involved a slow death by a form of cruxifiction. ( Depending on the historical period maybe. )

[Joe Leung]

[Joe Leung]

[Nathan Robinson]

[Gabriel Stevens]

Um at least in english the cut material seems to have been bamboo....? Not that that isn't a tough either...but from what I've read swords with actual inscriptions from cutting tests on bodies are pretty rare and a great many are fakes (as in the cutting result was added later).

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/sharp.htm

I hate to use the net as reference because so few people provide citations for things but here was a link I found that has an interesting part. Under Historical Tameshigiri there is a quote from Yamamoto Tsunetomo which, though somewhat morbid offers some insight I think.

Here's the link to that: http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/tameshigiri_2.html

Here's a short discussion on sword forum.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s...+criminals

And in that dicussion is a link to this article which really goes into depth about the subject.

http://www2.una.edu/Takeuchi/DrT_Jpn_Culture_...AMESHI.htm

[Joe Leung]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Found my reference to the use of criminals condemned to death:

" It was tested on a human corpse that might be suspended in various positions to permit different cutting strokes.
Sometimes a criminal condemned to death. One story tell of a burly robber who sat in the stocks awaiting execution. When the swordsman walked up with a naked blade he asked: " Is it you who will cut me down ?"

" Yes was the reply ........ " I shall cut you in KESA ( Shoulder to side ) style ...... "

" If I had known it before, " said the robber, " I would have swallowed a couple of big stones to spoil your sword."

Source: Great ages of man, a history of the world's cultures, EARLY JAPAN, by Jonathan Norton Leonard, and the Editors of
TIME-LIFE BOOKS, 1968. Page 79.

Now this one source could be wrong, but this is where I got my information: There is no mention of the idea that precious swords were too sacred to soil on the body of criminals at least as far as this source leaves me to believe.

I'm quite ready to accept the opposite if better quality sources contradict my source.

[Shane Allee]

Thanks Thomas, that has pretty much been my understanding as well.

Without getting overly graphic or gory, there is still two different levels of "freshness" being discussed here. The japanese didn't exactly have refrigeration units back then to be keeping bodies for test cutting. While it is dead and the bones have been hardening, it hasn't had as long to as a piece of pork from the market.

If a person really wanted to get a better feel and cut meat, something like a soft wood dowel or something similar inserted into the meat would be much better representation.

Shane

[Eric Meulemans]

[George Hill]

[Matthew Kelty]

I accidentally got my threads crossed, so this was posted in the "Quality Control" thread, when I guess it is more in line with the thread here, or both, I dunno, Moderators, do with it what you will, or leave it be...

At any rate:

As far as what a quality blade *should* be able to do or not do, and the potential of the medium of Steel, I just wanted to share with everyone the requirements for the Journeyman status in the American Bladesmith Society, as it serves as a benchmark by which expert knifemakers judge their peers. The only difference between the "Journeyman" and "Master" status, is that the Master's test requires the same feats of a Pattern welded blade.

Excerpted from http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ABS_JSTest.htm

Below are the requirements of the piece itself, and note that *NO* stropping or honing is allowed between the test phases:

The applicant must have personally forged and performed all work on the test blade, with no other person physically assisting in its construction or heat-treating.

Only forged blades may be tested. Applicants for Journeyman Smith must test with a carbon steel knife. Damascus or laminated blades are not allowed as test blades for those seeking Journeyman Smith status.

Once the test begins, no work, not even light stropping, may be done to the test blade.

TEST KNIFE SPECIFICATIONS:
- Overall Length of Knife: Maximum fifteen (15) inches.
- Blade Width: Maximum two (2) inches.
- Blade Length: Maximum ten (10) inches from point to the beginning of either the guard, bolster, or handle of the - blade.
- Handle Configuration: Any handle configuration is acceptable with or without guard, bolsters, ferrule, etc.
- Handle material is irrelevant and solely the choice of the applicant.
- Blade Material: The Journeyman Smith may test with any forged steel of his or her choice except Damascus.

The test must be conducted in the following sequence:

NOTE: ALL TESTS MUST BE PERFORMED BY THE APPLICANT, EXCEPT AS SPECIFICALLY PROVIDED FOR IN THE ROPE CUTTING. THE MASTER SMITH IS TO SUPERVISE AND SERVE AS THE OFFICIAL ABS WITNESS.

1. ROPE CUTTING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO TEST THE EDGE GEOMETRY AND SHARPNESS.
Applicant is responsible for supplying the test rope and ensuring that it is a minimum of one (1) inch in diameter. If the applicant brings a larger rope, the applicant will be judged using the same criteria as though the rope was one-inch (1) in diameter. The rope is to be hung in a safe manner, so that the end of the rope to be cut hangs loose without touching the floor or any other object. As a safety precaution, the rope is not to be hand held by another person during the rope-cutting test. The hanging end of the rope is to be marked with tape or a marker to clearly indicate the area that is to be cut. The cut must be approximately six (6) inches from the end of the free hanging rope. A minimum of one (1) cut must be made. The applicant is to aim at the mark with a two (2) inch margin of high or low being acceptable. The applicant must sever the rope in two with one stroke. If the applicant fails on the first attempt, the Master Smith will allow two more attempts. However, if the Master Smith believes that the failure to sever the rope is due to the lack of skill or strength of the applicant, the Master Smith may attempt the rope cutting with the test knife. This is a test of the applicant’s ability to make a knife, not to cut with it. If neither the applicant nor the Master Smith successfully cuts the rope, the applicant fails.

2. WOOD CHOPPING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE TOUGHNESS.
The chopping test is to be conducted with 2x4 construction grade wood stud. The 2x4 may be either hand held or clamped into a vise or other safe devise. A chopping motion (no whittling) is to be used. The 2x4 must be chopped completely through a minimum of two (2) times. The applicant may choose the area of the 2x4 through which to chop. Following the chopping test, the Master Smith will inspect the edge to determine if there is any noticeable damage to the blade. Any nicks, chips, flat spots, rolled edges, or other deformations of the blade will result in failing the test.

3. SHAVING HAIR: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE RETENTION.
After the Master Smith approves the quality of the edge, the blade will be returned to the applicant. The applicant must then shave hair using the section of the blade that was most frequently used in the cutting and chopping portions of the test. Enough hair must be shaved to demonstrate that the edge remains keen and shaving sharp.

4. BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEAT TREAT A KNIFE WITH A SOFT BACK AND A HARD EDGE.
The bending of the blade is the final test. Safety gear should be worn. At the discretion of the applicant or the Master Smith, the edge may be dulled prior to bending. The Master Smith will mark a line across the width of the blade approximately 1/3 distance from the tip of the blade. The blade will then be inserted into a vise, tip first, such that the blade is placed into the vise up to the mark on the blade. If the vise jaws are rough, smooth metal inserts shall be located on each side of the clamped portion of the blade to protect the blade, when bending the test knife. The blade shall be bent by force applied to the handle. A leverage device, such as a pipe may be used as long as it does not pose a safety risk. The use of such a device is at the sole risk of the applicant and at the discretion of the supervising Master Smith. The applicant will then bend the blade ninety (90) degrees. The supervising Master Smith will signal the applicant when the ninety (90) degree angle has been reached. The blade is allowed to crack at the edge on bending but not beyond approximately two thirds (2/3rds) the width of the blade. However, if any part of the blade chips or any part of the blade or tang breaks off, the applicant fails. Because of the many variables in the size, geometry, and temper line of the blade, the Master Smith using his/her judgment, shall determine if the extent or location of the fracture line is acceptable. The decision of the Master Smith is final.



So, in order, sever a free hanging 1" rope in one stroke, chop two 2x4's, and shave hair, all without "nicks, chips, flat spots, rolled edges, or other deformations", and no stropping or honing in between. I'd be surprised if the Classic swords we all admire even required a re-polish, merely a simple wipedown and rehoned edge if engaged against "fleshy" targets for posterity testing.

With that in mind, surviving a cut at a pork shoulder to me doesn't sound too unrealistic an expectation. The dead bone comments have been all said, but I think the message was missed on Swordforum, and never made it back here. It's not 'dead' bone that matters, it's 'dry' bone. As long as you have a fairly fresh piece of meat and bone, where reasonable precautions have been made to not let it dry out, it's a fairly valid test, and is probably more forgiving than anything other than a "green" 2x4 ("green" meaning a moisture content higher than 6% or so). But enough of bones...

Certainly a knife has different requirements than a sword, as well as many people aim for how to create "the" piece to get them their status, and may not adhere to the standards once they have achieved it, but the intent is that *every* well made blade should be able to undergo this process and survive (the bending test being to the "extreme").

So, given that we know how a quality blade *should* hold up, we can plug that into the end product, and ask how our family of makers test for that result. I think everyone here (Gus, Tinker, et. al) has done a fair job of describing their process, and as we all attest to, these guys *do* deliver quality goods. Do they neccesarily test at the level of scrutiny described above? No, but I think they handle a certain amount of it, and could probably pass 75% of their products through without breaking a sweat, as well as there is a large audience of happy customers backing them up.

Should some new guy roll into town, think back to the ABS requirements, and be sure to ask the maker how he tests his finished products, and see if the objectives of a quality blade are looked at and adhered to, and how well it may stack up against the ABS guidelines.

Angus, Tinker, Craig, Peter, I'm saving my pennies, and in case there are any other Jim 'Atar' Hrisoulas collectors out there, while I've not tested it, his goal is 52C along the edges.

Sincerely,
Matthew