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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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 Posted: Tue 16 Aug, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Get a room you two !  |
Nah, I've been screwed by enough lawyers ;-)
(no offense, Steve :-) Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Tue 16 Aug, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomas McDonald wrote: | I was talking for sum 3 hours last night with Vince and of course the subject of this piece came up ! .. .....
He told me that the guard and pommel on his hilt are also dished to accept the horn inserts which set in to them !
So it's not like he just slapped a piece of cheese in the sandwich ;-)
Yup, alot more than meets the eye here ! Quite the sword indeed, Mac |
Sorry to break up the love-fest  
I just found a picture of a sword very like Vince's recreation. Jeroen posted on his website...
http://membres.lycos.fr/bronzeage/
The angle of the photo shows how the metal components of the guards are dished to accept the horn inserts just as Vince related to Mac.
ks
 Attachment: 77.51 KB
Ring Hilt sword found at Dover in Kent now in the British Museum, London
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 16 Aug, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Great images, Kirk !
They really show off exactly what Vince was talking about !
One of the reasons he'd mentioned this historical feature was to explain to me that the brass upper & lower guards were not nearly as thick as his pictures would lead one to believe ! He also mentioned that these style hilts, that include organic materials, are not the easiest things to peen down as the components tend to give !
I guess knowing your materials is key in getting these things buttoned down properly, Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Tue 16 Aug, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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"Pattern-welded Basket hilt???"
Vince did not mention this to me. What is this "pattern welded basket hilt" of which you speak????
Okay, I'm going to have to give Vince more of my money, I guess.... *sigh*... sacrifices must be made....
David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 16 Aug, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| David Wilson wrote: | "Pattern-welded Basket hilt???"
Vince did not mention this to me. What is this "pattern welded basket hilt" of which you speak????
Okay, I'm going to have to give Vince more of my money, I guess.... *sigh*... sacrifices must be made.... |
Nope, no pw baskethilt for this show .....
But that of course leaves your wallet wide open to buy this migration sword, Dave !
:-) Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Tue 16 Aug, 2005 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Tempt me not!!!!!
I'm tempted enough as it is.
David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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Randolph Howard
Location: Bath, England. Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Thu 18 Aug, 2005 3:07 am Post subject: Migration Era Swords- function? |
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| Kirk Lee Spencer wrote: |
Those guys must have really liked their swords blade heavy to go out of their way to lighten a hilt that needed to be heavier to balance the blade. Or maybe they were just pinching pennies and trying to save a little silver that would never be seen on the inside. |
I am ignorant of trends in this period of sword outside England, but my impression of the sword's role in Saxon society(albeit post-invasion/migration) is that it was largely ceremonial- its expense giving it and its owner a high social status, which in turn encouraged the glorification of a sword's aesthetics. Military power in Saxon England appears to have been for the most part the subject of the spear for the average fyrdman, and the axe for the huscarl (feel free to correct me- indeed I imagine that swords were used by this social group). Thus it seems that the King's sword found at Sutton Hoo played less of a military role than it did a 'fashionable' one.
I realise that this sword is specifically from a different era from the piece we are discussing/ fawning over, but it serves as a suitable example for this question. What do we know of the use of Migration Era swords? Were they mostly badges of rank, which might explain the impractical lightening of the hilt, or a staple infantry weapon? If we are to see these swords as major military players, what could explain the fact the the makers of kirk's example chose not to add weight to the hilt- perhaps there are some advantages...?
Thanks to whoever has the answers!!
"A collision at sea can ruin your entire day."
-Thucydides.
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Thu 18 Aug, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I dont´t know if this is an aswer to what you asked but as a swordsman who have tried to fight some linefighting as part of training I can say that the spear is very effective undder those contitions. But if you get in a man to man situation I at least prefere the duality and movebility of the sword or/and the dagger. (both slashing and stabbing attacks.)
If this was the case for them back then I don´t know for sure but I have an inkling;)
I think that a warrior back then was not so much controlled by the thought of what he fought with but who and under what conditions. And the better warrior the more instruments in the arsenal , both physical and skill wise...
Just MHO...
Martin
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 18 Aug, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Migration Era Swords- function? |
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| Randolph Howard wrote: | I am ignorant of trends in this period of sword outside England, but my impression of the sword's role in Saxon society(albeit post-invasion/migration) is that it was largely ceremonial- its expense giving it and its owner a high social status, which in turn encouraged the glorification of a sword's aesthetics. Military power in Saxon England appears to have been for the most part the subject of the spear for the average fyrdman, and the axe for the huscarl (feel free to correct me- indeed I imagine that swords were used by this social group). Thus it seems that the King's sword found at Sutton Hoo played less of a military role than it did a 'fashionable' one.
I realise that this sword is specifically from a different era from the piece we are discussing/ fawning over, but it serves as a suitable example for this question. What do we know of the use of Migration Era swords? Were they mostly badges of rank, which might explain the impractical lightening of the hilt, or a staple infantry weapon? If we are to see these swords as major military players, what could explain the fact the the makers of kirk's example chose not to add weight to the hilt- perhaps there are some advantages...?
Thanks to whoever has the answers!! |
Tylecote and Gilmour has analysed a number of edged tools and weapons from roman times into the anglo saxon period.
Their results show that the scramaseaxes, although forged with seemingly very similar patterwelding techniques had (as a rule) better and more steel in the edge, while the doublde edged swords of the anglo saxon time usually had a rather small amount of steel in the edge with a rather low quality heattreat. The impression was that such a blade would bend on impact or otherwise get damaged.
The material investigated were exclsively English finds, so the result relates to the anglo saxon situation, but might hint at a similar situation on the contient.
This was the time of most populaity for the scramaseax and together with the spear it was the most common weapons for most warriors. The double edged sword or spatha of the time seems to have been somethig worn by the elite exclusively often having vey rich hilts. Scramaseaxes on the other hand while sometimes having nice patternwelded blades (not always!) usually had hilts more or less completely of organic material. These hilts or grips are mostly gone today and so does not tel us about any possible carvings or other ornaments (I think there was!) but one get an impression the scramaseax was more intended for business.
One should be carefull about drawing far fetching conclusions, but the evidence point in this direction.
We should remember that much of the material is grave finds and that may or may not relate to the actual situation.
This does not say that all double edged swords of the time was made just for show, but that there is a trend. The highly embellished and rish patternwelded double edged sword during the migration era was a symbol of power and status.
Some might also have been serious weapons.
Even if they do lack a weighty pommel the blade can be shaped in such a way it still has good self balance.
These swords tend to be shorter than the later viking swords. The can be heavy lengths of patternwelded steel, though. I´ve held some that felt rather dull and sluggish. Not all though.
As to the sword that started this thread: outstanding worksmanhip! (as could be expected perhaps) Brings tears to ones eyes
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Randolph Howard
Location: Bath, England. Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Thu 18 Aug, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Peter,
I think you are right to express caution in using early Saxon England as too much of an indicator of what weapons were regularly used on the continent: it appears to me that during the evolution of the sword during the iron age, new developements tend to reach Britain later, cut off as it is from Europe (of course those pesky Romans turn up, bringing new swords from left right and centre and COMPLETELY ruining my pattern  ). Perhaps, then, double edged swords such as the above beauty WERE a feature of Germanic warfare at the time...
But this is all conjecture- I'm going to do some reading...
"A collision at sea can ruin your entire day."
-Thucydides.
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 19 Aug, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas McDonald wrote: | See ... Mac's not using his inside pipeline to greedily cut you guys out of new VE pieces !
Yup, selfless & noble, that's 'ol Mac alright ! ;-) |
Um, scratch this last bit .... turns out I'm just a selfish b@z#@&d afterall ;-) Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Fri 19 Aug, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomas McDonald wrote: | | Thomas McDonald wrote: | See ... Mac's not using his inside pipeline to greedily cut you guys out of new VE pieces !
Yup, selfless & noble, that's 'ol Mac alright ! ;-) |
Um, scratch this last bit .... turns out I'm just a selfish b@z#@&d afterall ;-) Mac |
OK, Mac. Time to come clean. This sounds like a hint that you swiped something out from under the noses of other VE collectors out there?
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Fri 19 Aug, 2005 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomas McDonald wrote: | | Thomas McDonald wrote: | See ... Mac's not using his inside pipeline to greedily cut you guys out of new VE pieces !
Yup, selfless & noble, that's 'ol Mac alright ! ;-) |
Um, scratch this last bit .... turns out I'm just a selfish b@z#@&d afterall ;-) Mac |
Hmmmm.... a little insider trading there???
Hey, I won't say nuthin if you don't........
David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sun 09 Oct, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Last weekend, at Blade Show West, this sword won the award for Best Damascus Blade (there was no seperate category for swords)....
Attachment: 50.57 KB
David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sun 09 Oct, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a sad attempt to get a picture of the tip and the pattern-weld pattern....
Attachment: 42.42 KB
David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sun 09 Oct, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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And here it is next to a Patrick Barta Viking sword.....
Attachment: 60.98 KB
David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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This is a standard topic