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Joe Fults
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 Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2003 8:42 pm Post subject: Question about hollow grinding |
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Not sure if this is the right forum to post this question to, but I'm curious, so here goes!
Watched the Two Towers Extend DVD this evening, and 43 extra minutes makes for a long yet interesting movie. Repeatedly in the film, there are hollow ground swords. Granted these are fantasy, but I got to wondering why we don't see more like them. It seems like very few sword manufacturing ventures make hollow ground models, although Albion may be changing that.
So is it because...
Hollow grinding is it because is difficult to machine?
Longer to produce?
Not much market demand?
Historically rare?
A combination of reasons or something else entirely?
I'm really just hoping some of the people with knowledge can share a bit so I can understand more, and I think this might make for some interesting discussion.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2003 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I love hollow ground blades. I love the way they look, especially when combined with a fuller.
You don't see more of them on the production market for two reasons, cost and time. Most production companies try to operate within a fixed price point. Hollow grinding takes extra time which adds up to increased cost. Most companies have identified their target market and generally don't make attempts to move beyond that. When you think about the state of the current economy this isn't a bad philosophy.
I don't really think there was a big demand for it in the past. In recent years sword enthusiasts have become more sophisticated and demanding. As a result I think we're seing an increased demand for things like hollow ground blades. In Albions case they had to develop certain pieces of machinery to enable them to make hollow ground blades in an efficient manner. In the business world time is money. Swords are no different.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2003 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Question about hollow grinding |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | Not sure if this is the right forum to post this question to, but I'm curious, so here goes!
Watched the Two Towers Extend DVD this evening, and 43 extra minutes makes for a long yet interesting movie. Repeatedly in the film, there are hollow ground swords. Granted these are fantasy, but I got to wondering why we don't see more like them. It seems like very few sword manufacturing ventures make hollow ground models, although Albion may be changing that.
So is it because...
Hollow grinding is it because is difficult to machine?
Longer to produce?
Not much market demand?
Historically rare?
A combination of reasons or something else entirely?
I'm really just hoping some of the people with knowledge can share a bit so I can understand more, and I think this might make for some interesting discussion. |
Hi Joe
You see quite a few historically. They're not in the majority or anything like that, but they're definitly around.
For myself, the machining aspect is not a problem. The machining would take no longer than a flat bevel sword.......
The problem isn't machining, its the handwork. I really don't have the proper equiptment at this time, nor the time to invest to get the process down. Once this business is no longer a one man operation, then maybe we'll see.......
The above just refers to my little operation.....
If memory serves me right, the older CASI's bevels were hollow ground, kinda like the blade was run against a large diameter wheel horizontally. I think I've also seen one of Doc Hrisoulas swords like that....... so its not unheard of....
Is there a market for it? Ask Albion, they now have had two models out for quite some time, and their new Sture model will be hollow ground........
Auld Dawg
swords are fun
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Scott Byler
Location: New Mexico Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2003 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Kris Cutlery used to have a hollow grind on much if not all their stuff. Don't know about their current stuff as I've not bought any new blades from them in years. Hollow grinding is cool, though. I like the look and it has some nice advantages in taking weight out of stuff I'd wager. But, I think it requires a bit of skill and more time. I've got a knife I made here, a bowie type, that is hollow ground. (Actually it is one of the 2 knives I first made back when... I just need to actually clean it up.) Not too bad to grind but the cleanup is going to be some work since I'll have to do it by hand. Oh, well...
I'm very glad to see that Albion is doing some really nice swords featuring the hollow grind... It tends to stand out on the market as it stands now. 
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2003 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Question about hollow grinding |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: |
You see quite a few historically. They're not in the majority or anything like that, but they're definitly around.
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They were extremely common in the Renaissance era. Many, many superb surviving examples exist. |
Was this because of a greater emphasis on thrust (over cut) in that era? I can see how hollow grinding would enhance stiffness for thrusting, but have sometimes wondered what the effect is, on cutting to any depth, of the accelerating thickening of the blade.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Some interesting answers thus far.
I must admit I like the look of hollow grinding, but I have not really explored it as an option. Mainly I guess I assume it would be cost prohibitive. Guess I hope Albion gets good response to the work it is doing, that way more will come out in the future.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Don't forget about Jody Samson. His hollow grinding is simply superb!
Constant and true.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Jay Barron wrote: | | Don't forget about Jody Samson. His hollow grinding is simply superb! |
The amazing thing is that Jody does it all free hand!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | Guess I hope Albion gets good response to the work it is doing, that way more will come out in the future. |
The real clincher is the type of reproductions Albion chooses to replicate. If they pick a historic original that has a hollow-ground blade, the reproduction will have it as well. That's the direction they seem to have taken, and I for one am a fan of that decision.
Anyway, I'd very much like to see more makers carefully replicating swords including the edge geometry found on the example they're reproducing. Many of the swords we see today as inspiration for our reproductions were hollow-ground, but have been fitted with a diamond cross-section or similar simply because of ease of manufacture. In years past, customers didn't know better, or wouldn't have valued a truly accurate reproduction... my hope is that this has changed and the demand for the things history has brought us has grown.
Authenticity comes at a price, of course, and the consumer base has to be able to support it. One goal of myArmoury.com is to encourage people to learn about the great diversity history has brought us, creating a hunger to see more of it reproduced.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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David Stokes
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:30 am Post subject: |
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This is something I have not seen mentioned so far:
All answers so far as price price price, but what if its more than that,
Let me make my thought process by taking it to a smaller scale: Edges. For a cutting tool, lets just say a knife, a hollow ground edge forms a more acute edge allowing it to cut better, a flat ground edge sort of a in between ground and a convex grind such as an axe edge beging focused towards more strength than a fine edge.
Fact is, the finer the edge the quicker it will dull, nick, chip ect.........
Taking that bit of knowledge and upsizing it to a sword blade cross section geometry, wouldnt a hollow ground blade be (laterally???) weaker? Sure it would no doubt be stiffer in the thrust I imagine, but when we are talking about stiffness we are talking about LACK of flexibility. combine that with the fact that the steel is disttibuted differently wouldnt this be more prone to breakage?
We are talking rather vaguely here, lets be specific., Take two swords, exact same length, width, steel type, heat treatment, and thickness and the "spine", only difference one is flat ground, one is hollow ground.
Based off what i said above, wouldnt the hollow ground one be weaker structurally?
OR does it create strength in a similar way an "I" beam does?
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| David Stokes wrote: | This is something I have not seen mentioned so far:
All answers so far as price price price, but what if its more than that,
Let me make my thought process by taking it to a smaller scale: Edges. For a cutting tool, lets just say a knife, a hollow ground edge forms a more acute edge allowing it to cut better, a flat ground edge sort of a in between ground and a convex grind such as an axe edge beging focused towards more strength than a fine edge.
Fact is, the finer the edge the quicker it will dull, nick, chip ect.........
Taking that bit of knowledge and upsizing it to a sword blade cross section geometry, wouldnt a hollow ground blade be (laterally???) weaker? Sure it would no doubt be stiffer in the thrust I imagine, but when we are talking about stiffness we are talking about LACK of flexibility. combine that with the fact that the steel is disttibuted differently wouldnt this be more prone to breakage?
We are talking rather vaguely here, lets be specific., Take two swords, exact same length, width, steel type, heat treatment, and thickness and the "spine", only difference one is flat ground, one is hollow ground.
Based off what i said above, wouldnt the hollow ground one be weaker structurally?
OR does it create strength in a similar way an "I" beam does? |
Not neccesarily.
First, we're discussing swords of the high medieval period, not rapiers and small swords. That's a different game altogether.
The problem with simply upsizing a knifes cross section, and using that as an indicator, is that a sword is not a knife. If you examine many originals of hollow ground design you'll see that the concave curve from the midridge down to the edge isn't a constant. Just as there can be a non-linear line to distal taper so can there be in a hollow ground cross section. Often that curvature will be less acute as it nears the edge. The result will be blade that possesses the advantages of increased rigidity for thrusting, balance for dynamic handling, and still retains a strong edge geometry. Another thing to keep in mind is that, most of the time, the cross section of a hollow ground sword won't be as acute as that of a knife. The curvature will be much less severe than that of a knife, so the knife/sword analogy really doesn't apply here either.
Stiffness may mean *less* flexibility, but it certainly doesn't mean *no* flexibility.
One thing to always keep in mind when dealing with historic sword designs is that the oldtimers did it for real. There were concepts of engineering and design that were deeply understood by the craftsman of the time. Swords weren't made with the "Let's have a coke and a smile and see what happens" mentality. If a hollow ground blade had possessed a serious structural fault it simply wouldn't have been used.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Jay Barron wrote: | | Don't forget about Jody Samson. His hollow grinding is simply superb! |
The amazing thing is that Jody does it all free hand! |
That makes me wonder, how else (besides free hand) would a hollow grind be put into a blade?
Constant and true.
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Jason Dingledine
Location: Aurora, Ohio Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Barron wrote: |
That makes me wonder, how else (besides free hand) would a hollow grind be put into a blade? |
Hello,
First of all, I'll answer Jay's question. There are all sorts of jigs available for doing hollow-grinds, but almost all of them are made specifically for knives (I'm saying "almost" simply because I'm not aware of any on the market for doing swords). One of the most commonly advertised is simply two wheels facing each other (on edge) with a bottom rest on either side. You simply drop your knife blank straight down in between them and pull towards youself. You can get a perfectly consistent grind every time. This is how a lot of the factory made hollow-ground pocket knives can be made quickly and cheaply.
The reason that this doesn't work for swords is that the geometry of a Medieval hollow-grind is vastly different than a modern hollow-grinding, and the type of historic hollow-grinding can and does vary as well depending on the intended use of the sword.
As to our "new" line of hollow-ground swords, something to keep in mind is that we've been producing hollow-ground Atlantean and Father's swords for 2.5 years, and the first version of the Trafalgar for over 1.5 years. It's just that the former isn't in the same genre as the Albion Mark swords, and the Trafalgar was largely overlooked. Because the vast majority (but not all) movie swords (read as props) are hollow-ground in order to make the bevels look crisp on film, we are doing the same.
A large reason (personal opinion here) for there not being more hollow-ground blades on the market is that not everyone wants to invest in multiple thicknesses of stock. The Svante is milled from 1/2" stock and the Rouen (as well as others) is milled to a 5/16" max thickness, but the starting stock is 3/8". It's a big investment for a smaller company to carry two-three stock thicknesses standard. Individual smiths have an advantage in this case of being able to order only what they need for each project, production really doesn't have that option, or else turnaround times would be months, instead of weeks.
Patrick mentions time and cost in a post above, and these are large factors. The time to grind a hollow into a blade that is thicker than normal (for diamong x-section) is a factor, so is acquiring the skill to be able to do it consistently and accurately. And for the type of production that I am involved in, consistency is key.
Finish work is also vastly different on a sword that is hollow-ground, than one that already has the grind pattern running the length of the blades bevels (as in a diamond x-section blade). It requires quite a bit more work to change the direction of the scratches, which is why you can see buffed 120 grit scratches on Faramir's sword when the point is within the "One Ring's" chain. One a movie production, with the number of swords that they needed to produce, there wasn't time to grind the blade to 1200 grit, and then satin finish it.
Stiffness in a hollow-ground blade is also a relative matter. The hollow-ground Rouen blade has roughly the same weight as the same profile (with matching distal taper rates) as a diamond x-section blade made from thinner stock. You are getting greater lateral thickness without increasing weight, and that is the advantage.
Edge strength and durability was mentioned. It is another case of proper tool for the job. You would not use a straight-razor for woodcarving, any more than you would you use a sword designed to cut flesh and cloth only, against armor. I have seen documention (as well as swords in hand) that were designed to fillet muscle from bone, but would be useless against an armored foe.
Sorry, I don't normally talk this much. There is a lot here, and if I missed anything or brought up new questions, I and others (and there are a large number of them who know more than I do), can do our best to answer them.
Cheers,
Jason Dingledine
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Jason,
Thanks for the post.
It was informative and I would never have thought that part of the problem was keeping different stock. Guess like most business, the simple details of this one sometimes surprise those of us on the outside.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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David Stokes
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well spoken Jason.,
The Hollow ground issue has always been something in the back of my head, but I am glad that it is being talked about here....... we learn something new everyday!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Jason,
Thanks for the excellent post!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Mr Dingledine
Thanks. Fascinating stuff. So, to return to my earlier point, if the hollow ground blade can be wider at the centre than an equivalent weight diamond section blade have you any experience of relative depth of cut achievable with such a blade in a soft medium? Does the greater thickness of the blade path that needs to be cleared/greater amount of material that needs to be pushed aside reduce its efficiency as a cutter?
Geoff
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Gordon Clark
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2003 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | Mr Dingledine
Thanks. Fascinating stuff. So, to return to my earlier point, if the hollow ground blade can be wider at the centre than an equivalent weight diamond section blade have you any experience of relative depth of cut achievable with such a blade in a soft medium? Does the greater thickness of the blade path that needs to be cleared/greater amount of material that needs to be pushed aside reduce its efficiency as a cutter?
Geoff |
I think the answer must be 'yes'. In terms of basic sword physics, flatter blades = better cutters. It is always a tradeoff, and the science and art is the perfect balance for the intended job.
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Jason Dingledine
Location: Aurora, Ohio Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Thu 20 Nov, 2003 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | Mr Dingledine
Thanks. Fascinating stuff. So, to return to my earlier point, if the hollow ground blade can be wider at the centre than an equivalent weight diamond section blade have you any experience of relative depth of cut achievable with such a blade in a soft medium? Does the greater thickness of the blade path that needs to be cleared/greater amount of material that needs to be pushed aside reduce its efficiency as a cutter?
Geoff |
Hi Geoff,
Wow, didn't know my father was posting here.  Jason is fine, no need for the "Mister" part.
I've cut with a number of hollow-ground swords, and never had an issue with poor cutting ability. These swords ranged from our Atlantean (a big monster that can and will cut very large targets), to a hollow-ground sword forged by Peter Johnsson, which weighed less than 2lbs (owned by a friend who was kind enough to trust me cutting with it before he had even had a chance with it).
They do feel different, but so do lenticular blades, when compared to diamond cross-section blades. Being aware of the differences I think is important, and expecting a different feel than what you might be used to. Not all swords are created equal.
Jason Dingledine
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