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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Really great Patrick and I guess that if the look is 20% better the fit an mobility is 100% better.
That last photo with sword and shield really looks fantastic. Not sure about the historical accuracy but I could see splinted forearm armour like that made by Allan at Mercenary's Tailor would improve your level of protection a bit.
The Spada I and Spada II shield articles sort of explains why these were optional as one would always be careful of covering the sword arm with the shield and not overextend the arm past the shield.
Rounded or mostly very rounded shields have the disadvantage in protecting the forearm compared to the earlier day flat shields and longer sleeves on Hauberks seem to happen at the same time that shield become more rounded and or smaller.
Are you still going to make the coif integral to the Hauberk eventually ? If you do' I would think that making the face opening large enough so that the hood can be pushed back to over the shoulders when needing a break or a little extra cooling.
I would think that a very small face opening would mean having to take the whole Hauberk off to get some relief !?
With the separate coif a Kettle Hat or Barrel Helm and surcoat you can do First Crusade and transitional later armour very well.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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BTW Patrick, are you wearing any kind of padded undergarment (such as a gambeson) underneath?
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Thomas Hoogendam
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Great kit you got there Patrick, very nice. Might I ask where you got that kite-shield? My first guess would be Mercenary Tailors, but I could be wrong ofcourse.
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Paul Mortimer
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Fantastic work, Patrick. I do have some appreciation of making mail but have uet to try anything with rivets!
You should change sides and be an Englisc huscarl!
Paul
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| C.L. Miller wrote: | Looking great there Patrick! Your changes do make a noticeable difference in comparison with the earlier photos (which looked very nice as they were)... the hang seems does seem far more natural in appearance. I'd say your time has been well-spent indeed, bravo!
I notice you're still wielding the BJ... did the Reeve not take to the scabbard, or have you changed your mind about using it?
Would you happen to know how wide-spread the use of the Dane-axe was, post-Hastings? Did the Normans adopt it in any great numbers? |
Thanks!
Not only does it look more natural it also moves much more naturally as well, as I said: it's far more comfortable now.
I'm using the BJ here because Peter J. is one of the people who asked for photos. Anyway, it's my favorite so it's hard to get all dressed up and not take it along.  The Reeve does fit in that scabbard though.
I'm really not sure on the use of the Dane axe post-Hastings. At this point it was a characteristiclly scandanavian weapon which seems to have fallen out of use by the 12th century. I can't say for sure though. I use it with this gear when I'm feeling Saxonish!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Really great Patrick and I guess that if the look is 20% better the fit an mobility is 100% better.
That last photo with sword and shield really looks fantastic. Not sure about the historical accuracy but I could see splinted forearm armour like that made by Allan at Mercenary's Tailor would improve your level of protection a bit. |
I haven't really seen any evidence of those defenses being used in this period by the Normans or the Saxons. One thing I've always liked best about this kind of gear is that it's possible to be fully armoured while still presenting a rather clean appreance without a lot of clutter.
| Quote: | | The Spada I and Spada II shield articles sort of explains why these were optional as one would always be careful of covering the sword arm with the shield and not overextend the arm past the shield. |
I don't think I'd hang my arm out like that in a real fight. However, Peter Johnsson had asked for some photos so I took a few like that wherein the sword was the focal point. Purely an artistic thing.
| Quote: | | Are you still going to make the coif integral to the Hauberk eventually ? If you do' I would think that making the face opening large enough so that the hood can be pushed back to over the shoulders when needing a break or a little extra cooling. |
I really don't know on the coif. To be honest it will probably stay as-is for reasons of versatility. As you mentioned: the addition of a kettle hat would give it the look of a whole other period. One of the things I did to the coif was close up the facial opening. It was huge. If an integeral coif was used the opening would be bigger but with a ventail of some kind.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | BTW Patrick, are you wearing any kind of padded undergarment (such as a gambeson) underneath? |
Not yet, that's one of the future projects still to come. It seems to be hotly debated as to whether or not padded garments were worn under mail during this period as there's no evidence to support it. I'll use a gambeson simply to prevent my clothing from getting nasty and dirty every time I put the mail on. I also need to loose some weight first. I don't think I need any extra bulk under there right now.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Hoogendam wrote: | | Great kit you got there Patrick, very nice. Might I ask where you got that kite-shield? My first guess would be Mercenary Tailors, but I could be wrong ofcourse. |
Your guess is correct and thanks!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Mortimer wrote: | Fantastic work, Patrick. I do have some appreciation of making mail but have uet to try anything with rivets!
You should change sides and be an Englisc huscarl!
Paul |
Thanks Paul,
When putting this kit together I intentionally went with an appearance that could possibly serve as either Norman or Saxon. It all depends on my mood.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
I'm really not sure on the use of the Dane axe post-Hastings. At this point it was a characteristiclly scandanavian weapon which seems to have fallen out of use by the 12th century. I can't say for sure though. I use it with this gear when I'm feeling Saxonish! |
Daneaxes where still in use, at least in Norway, until the early 14th cent.
They where gradually replaced by the medieval "crescent" style broadaxe, but I've seen images of the traditional style in norwegian 14th cent. art.
Get a kettlehat, tie a red ribbon around it, and you can join up with our 1260 norwegian kingsmen any day 
 Attachment: 89.94 KB
Death of St. Olav, Norwegian church art, mid 13th century.
The use of scale is random at best, but both one and two handed axes are in use, as well as a one handed spear. (Soon to be slipped up under St. Olav's hauberk, to deliver the killing stab...)
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for that bit of information Elling!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I forgot to mention is that I used alternating rows of riveted and solid rings for a lot of the work on the skirt. Not for the gores but for adding length along the bottom. For anyone contemplating a riveted mail project this is the only way to go IMHO.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Joshua Reptsik
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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The helm, shield, and sword look familiar. Did you enter in the Christian Fletcher "Dog Days" photo contest by any chance?
" You little fool who wanted to be the best, see what happened." -MS 3227a
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick;
Regarding a gambison I can see where one being thick with cotton batting between layers of linen or cotton might not be true to this period and I think one reason for needing one is as you stated was to keep your clothing clean: I would suggest making a " proto " gambison not intended to protect much from blunt trauma but mostly to keep the maille from irritating your skin, this might be made using just one thick layer of linen or multiple layers of linen but with no fill in between the layers.
I can see maybe 4 kinds of gambison: 1 Very light and thin for underarmour comfort. 2 Normal weight padded gambison of medium weight that also is intended to give some blunt trauma protection. 3 Extra thick gambison intended as stand alone armour or for wear over a hauberks. 4 Same as previous but more like a jack with small metal plates between the layers of linen and/or a close pattern of rivets or studs.
Oh, this is not an official or historical list, just a personal way of defining different weights of gambison.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bill Duncan
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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I guess my horns are showing but I would love to see the reaction a DUI would have is you grabbed him in this kit!  
Great work and I love seeing someone who puts the time in on the research for their time period. grand work Hoss.
Dunc
May you live as long as you want but never want for as long as you live
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Joshua Reptsik wrote: | | The helm, shield, and sword look familiar. Did you enter in the Christian Fletcher "Dog Days" photo contest by any chance? |
Yes I did.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Duncan wrote: | I guess my horns are showing but I would love to see the reaction a DUI would have is you grabbed him in this kit!
Great work and I love seeing someone who puts the time in on the research for their time period. grand work Hoss.
Dunc |
Thanks Bill. A DUI might be surprised but I don't think my coworkers would be.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Patrick;
Regarding a gambison I can see where one being thick with cotton batting between layers of linen or cotton might not be true to this period and I think one reason for needing one is as you stated was to keep your clothing clean: I would suggest making a " proto " gambison not intended to protect much from blunt trauma but mostly to keep the maille from irritating your skin, this might be made using just one thick layer of linen or multiple layers of linen but with no fill in between the layers.
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Jean,
That's more or less what I have in mind. Probably just two layers of linen with one or two layers of cotton batting between them. The comfort factor isn't a big issue since the wool tunic offers a bit of padding in itself. There's really no irritation to speak of, but a small bit of padding wouldn't hurt.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Patrick;
Irritation level comment / question: I have a custom maille shirt ( 1980 ) with elbow lenght sleeves going to upper hips that is made of butted stainless steel and is so smooth to the touch that the lightest of T-shirts is sufficient for comfort.
Tried it once with nothing else under once just out of curiousity and the only problem was the occasional chest hair getting pulled. ( Minor ouch. )
With riveted maille I find I need at minimum a thick longsleeved undergarment as the surface feels more like not too sharp sand paper and I'm only really " happy " with using a gambison.
So is all riveted maille like this or are only some cheaper Indian made ones ? I think the flattened part of the rings where the rivets go through may have sharp corners or the small rivet heads are making much more aware of the texture. ( Not really sharp just very stubbly.  )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Jean,
I really can't say since I've never had the urge to put the stuff on while barechested.
I can say that I haven't experienced any snagging of my clothing while I've been wearing this riveted mail. As for all riveted mail, again, I can't say since I'm far from an expert.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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This is a standard topic