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Eric Nower




Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 22 Dec 2004

Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 11:01 am    Post subject: Gauntlet with sword         Reply with quote

Hello all,

I was wondering...Does anyone know of any surviving examples of a gauntlet with a sword( however short or long) forged onto it. Is it historical or purley fiction? Are there any examples in art or tapastries?

May God have mercy on my enemies, for I shall have none.
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Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Eric,
A Pata is a historical gauntlet sword,



 Attachment: 22.57 KB
pata7.jpg

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Vince Labolito




Location: Tallahassee, FL
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 41

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was just about to respond and let Eric know about these as well. I was just looking to see if I could find a picture of one in the albums.

You can see a Pata in action in the final battle in the movie "WILLOW". Probably used incorrectly, but it is on display.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
- Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
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Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hey vince,
must have just beat you to it,
couple more pics as most of mine are a bit large,
http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=+p...&x=wrt
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1201

Any ideas on how these weapons were used? They can't have been used for fencing as they would have been very restrictive with the wrist effectively paralysed, wouldn't they?
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Eric Nower




Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 22 Dec 2004

Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 6:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all,

Thanks Lee,

Any idea on what time peroid it's from,I'm guessing the 15th cen. but I could be wrong.

May God have mercy on my enemies, for I shall have none.
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C. Stackhouse




Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the little information I have been able to gather, it seems as if this weapon was used during the 1800's, originated in India and derived from the katar. If the time period is wrong, feel free to correct it. Razz
Above all else, be armed

-Niccolo Machiavelli
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Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Once I read on a forum that these were cavalry swords. But don't quote me on that Wink

Looks like a real wrist-breaker. I wouldn't use such a sword. My guess is that those swords were quite rare (like the Talhoffer dueling shields Laughing Out Loud )
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
Once I read on a forum that these were cavalry swords. But don't quote me on that Wink

Looks like a real wrist-breaker. I wouldn't use such a sword. My guess is that those swords were quite rare (like the Talhoffer dueling shields Laughing Out Loud )


Laughing Out Loud

Not all that rare, there are quite a few of these in Museums and private collections. They also often show up in Indian miniature paintings. I agree with you that these are probably cavalry weapons.

According to Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" these weapons first appear in the 16th century. There is a Old Mughul manuscript called "Nujum Al-Ulum" in the Chester Beatty Library dated to 1570 AD which has a miniature painting of a pata. According to Elgood that is possibly the earliest depiction of a pata. I think the oldest surviving examples date to the late 16th or early 17th centuries though.
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Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thx for the info!
So these swords were used for quite some time. Makes me think that this design was working. Maybe it was brought to India by the Moguls?
I really wonder how these swords were used. They don't look like born cutters, more like thrusting weapons (like a katar).
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
Thx for the info!
So these swords were used for quite some time. Makes me think that this design was working. Maybe it was brought to India by the Moguls?
I really wonder how these swords were used. They don't look like born cutters, more like thrusting weapons (like a katar).


I don't think it was introduced by the Mughuls, they initially used weapons and armour of Turco-Persian type, furthermore neither the pata or the katar are found outside India AFAIK. I think it probably evolved from the katar. I've got Rawson's "The Indian Sword" around here somewhere. I'll read up on it tonite. Happy
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Ville Paananen




Location: Finland
Joined: 07 Aug 2004

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think these weapons would provide quite a leverage, with a padded gauntlet supporting the wrist static. Using one would differ much from the usual swordsmanship, it would be interesting to try one. I haven't seen them in ebay etc too often.
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Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These might make sense for cavalry use. Think of the way the cavalry sabre gave way to the sword in the west, with final designs emphasizing the straight arm and thrust only. The weapon shown here may be an attempt to force the user to attack with the thrust, using it as a short lance. Pure speculation, though.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could these have been used like the Polish(?) cavalry tuck? i.e. more of a thrusting action? Although they do look quite capable of cutting too. Are they all rigid or are some articulated?

Cheers,
Nate Coser

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
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C. Stackhouse




Location: Kitchener, Ontario
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These weapons actually look quite comfortable and easy to use.
Above all else, be armed

-Niccolo Machiavelli
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Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The stiff wrist would severely limit movement, compared to 'normal' swords.
I assume that the construction makes it difficult to release the sword. It could probably break your arm or worse if it got stuck, especially from horseback.

Polden's Law obviously applies here: "If exotic weapons were any good, they wouldn't be exotic, would they?"
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Eric Nower




Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 22 Dec 2004

Posts: 174

PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 4:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So there wasn't anything in historical Europe like that.....mostly India.




"Polden's Law obviously applies here: "If exotic weapons were any good, they wouldn't be exotic, would they?""

Apparenetly this seems to be true Laughing Out Loud

May God have mercy on my enemies, for I shall have none.
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been doing a bit of reading, but don't really have much to show for my efforts.

This from P. S. Rawson's "The Indian Sword" (1968), I was originally going to quote it, but felt too lazy and let my scanner do the work instead: Big Grin


Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" has several excellent photos of very old patas, but no information on how they were used. These pictures are from Elgood:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...lgood1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...good_2.jpg
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C. Stackhouse




Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know this may seem odd. But I'm now addicted to this weapon. Razz

I have a soft spot for exotic weapons, I'm a huge fan of unique and interesting designs.

Above all else, be armed

-Niccolo Machiavelli
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Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now that is interesting! Happy
Even if the blades were mostly European, I doubt they were Rapier-blades, they look more like cut-and-thrust blades.
How do you guard yourself with such a sword when the enemy closes in? Or was it supposed to be used in conjunction with a shield?
I like the short-pata with the strongly tapering blade and the double-fuller on the first pic. That one must
be very effective against chain-maille.


So now it's Polden's law vs. Rawson's assessment Laughing Out Loud
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