[Kevin Toomey]

(Thanks for that picture Peter.) Not only is that find a period of interest for me but answers a question I felt like asking. I have mounted my spears with the sockets flush because it seemed right. One was open seamed. My thinking was, without the shoulder the socket could be forced open, even with the shaft fully seated to the bottom of the socket, this could crush from impact, driving the head on further, and opening the seam. Perhaps a peened pin across the seam is enough to prevent this, or would a removable pin be best; that serves to draw the head down and an mostly keep it from falling off. Though I need more experience, it seems no good to try and balance the spear if you do not exceed the size of the socket, either with a barrel or butt taper. Not to ignore what Shane has said about wrapping, I am all for that if it has some historical evidences.

Does that sound right to anyone?

I admit that I only skimmed the Olympic dynamics page. J But, what do you guys think, would it be better to have the offensive javelin fly so that it would skim along the ground, rather than fly point down? Shane, I was wondering if you could explain more about balancing for different distances, even what distances would be helpful?


My throwing experience is not extensive. Lately I’ve been messing with a small palm size baton and cord, throwing a 5 foot fletched dart. My goal is a fast, accurate, level flight. I have never trimmed the fletching, which I think is the next thing to do, awa look into different cords. I’ve also harvested a few rabbits throwing 6 foot butt tapered hand thrown javelin, both with homemade tang and ferrule points.

I’ve never spent much effort to see how far I can throw. Mostly because I think the target would have to be large, completely unaware and I completely lucky. But, at say an average of 15 feet a good throw may be unavoidable. Maybe it’s all in the finger loops, which I haven’t figured out, (tips on those anyone?)

Does anyone have recommendations for a good replica of the Nydam spear(head) on the left PeterJ linked? Perhaps similar the small one you show Folkert.

[Folkert van Wijk]

Shifting the topic slowly from javelins to onehanded spears:

[Elling Polden]

The shaft diameter can be seen by the size of the sockets of the spearheads. As for length, it's basically experimentation.
Medevial norwegian sources states that your spear should not be longer than that you could touch the socket when the spear was standing next to you.
We use this for two handed spears, with the one handers being slightly shorter for balance.

My group does skirmish fighting; group fights with 4 to 50+ people on each side. The rules system is quite abstract and simple, so the realism level of the fighting isn't awfully high, but the tactics and maneuvering is quite enlightening. (the system was originally spawned by english viking groups...)
We are portraying 13th cent norwegian kingsmen, wich means we do a fair bit of fighting with one handed spears; preferably combined with a sword and dagger as backup.
We use the underhand grip almost exclusively, as we do not stab people in the face, or throw metal tipped spears.

But, again, it gives a fair idea of the use, range, and weaknesses of the one handed spear. Stabbing people in the face would up efficiency, but for close combat you still want your sword or dagger.
(The sequence goes spear-sword in attack, Spear-dagger-sword in defence; You get rushed, dropp the spear,pull your dagger to brawl, and if you get out of it alive, get the sword for the ensuing melee...)

[Shane Allee]

I haven't been able to throw enough to plot out the distance to taper relationship yet, or even enough to get a good average. For hunting or are fairly close enemy you would be throwing it pretty flat, but most of the time you would be throwing an arched throw at enemys at any kind of distance.

Attached is a picture of our back yard that I found to be too small to throw in. I tried throwing from just in front of the far gate and it landed at about a 45 degree or greater angle about where I was standing to take the picture. That was probably just and averaged strength throw, so not even trying to throw as hard as I could. That was also bare handed, I haven't been able to try throwing with any kind of aid yet.

Shane

[Kevin Toomey]

Hi Elling, Thanks for the insight of your experience. It sounds like fun, but I’d probably get hurt. One thing though, you said the shaft diameter can be seen by the sizes of the sockets. But this is not the case with the Nydam spear(s), nor the case with shorter darts that are obviously tapered. I suppose I don’t quite get your meaning.

Shane, that looks like it may be about 40 feet, but could be quite a bit more. Hard to say. What was it again that Nate had sent to you. May I get a copy?

[Steve Grisetti]

[Kevin Toomey]

True if we could throw or shoot something in a straight line, that'd be great. I meant trying to flatten a ballistic tragectory.

I see your point about massed targets, also finding them otherwise unaware, which I believe must be true for the jav to be effective at extreme range. wouldn't arrows and stones be more conveinient and just as annoying?

I just have it stuck in my mind that the javelin really comes into its own at some short distances just before long thrusting spears meet. Not to mention all that goes with, who what when and where.

[Steve Grisetti]

[Shane Allee]

Nate sent me a copy of the chapter "Throwing the Javelin" out of R. Norman Gardiner's book Athletics of the Ancient World. It shouldn't be a problem to ILL it, that is how Nate got it.

As it always seems I will be falling back to the celtic iron age to make points, just because it is the most familiar to me. I'm not about to try and take way from the usefulness of a flat trajectory thrown javelin to a near target, but I also think longer throws were common and had a place. One thing to consider with the celtic warrior was that it wasn't uncommon for them to carry multiple javelins into battle. Now unless there is regular movement in and out of close range it doesn't seem like it would be worth the trouble to have more than one. Even then you would have to be fighting with the javelins still being held in the same hand as your shield grip. Also only the very front line would be able to throw them, as the other lines would have to throw them over the guys in front of them. Also with the la tene period celts we see a distinction of javelins and light throwing spear. Some times these light throwing spears are similar to pilum or argon, other times they are more like the regular spears only smaller and lighter. These to me really seem to be what would have been thrown in close.

At this time the celts did know of and use the bow, but its use for them always remained as a hunting tool rather than for warfare. The javelin and sling they did use for both, and both would have been effective in volleys at groups of solders. Shot from a sling would be harder to follow and faster, unless large, but would be limited to blunt trauma. Javelins have an advantage in penetration potential and making things such as shields a burden. So both do have unique advantages, and would cause problems to groups of people relatively near each other.

Shane

[Kevin Toomey]

Thanks for your response and time guys. I wish i had something more substantial to offer but this is for me an intresting topic and I just couldn't not respond in some way.

Yes I was intentionally vaugue. I am unsure, didn't mean to sound as if I were. If also consider the incumburance of sheild and additional weapons held by the thrower then the effective range is shortened, at least I would assume so.