[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

To put into context what I mean by an infantry vs. a cavalry mace



This is the kind of mace we seem to see in Central Asia in the early Medieval period and the type we are most likely talking about in a Viking context. They are light with a wood haft and usually a small striking head made of what looks like soft iron or bronze usually. Great for a ride-by attack without getting your weapon stuck in the target. Maneuverable and swift to flip around with a thong around your wrist, and quickly dispatch unarmored targets or ring the bell of someone with a helmet. This may actually be a tertiary weapon carried by some very heavily armed warrior who also has a lance or a bow as a primary weapon, plus a sword or a hand-axe as a sidearm, and a lariat, a dagger, and possibly a war-hammer or a few javelins. On the steppe it seemed to be a good thing to have a whole lot of options.


In Europe we eventually started to see weapons like these, which are more evolved for infantry fighting. These are heavier, probably harder, and have more agressive protrusions, and often have langets for protection from being hacked to pieces by an enemies sword or axe, as well as sometimes roundels to protect the hand ...


which evolve into this type which is an ideal infantry mace, much heavier, very hard, pronounced amost axe like flanges, and all metal construction so that they are essentially indestructable. This is more suitible for duking it out toe to toe, i.e. for shock infantry.


The first type of weapon wasn't entirely suitible for the kind of warfare most Vikings engaged in, except perhaps in Russia or possibly places like France. The second type may not have been available or even something they knew about yet, and the third type wasn't around until the Renaissance as far as I know.


J

[Nick Trueman]

Hi

I dont assume, I go buy what has been found in Nordic and western burials/cremations. If none have been found in a Norse context then we must at this point of time think that they were not used. Until archaeology proves that they did use them than I am not willing to say that the Norse did have them.
The mace on the steppe was a cavalry weapon, and during the early and middle Viking age the Norse were not cavalry at all.
But foot soldiers and probably very good ones at that.

From memory some were found in Gotland? But this is also a late date after the Viking age.

N


"How do you assume that the Ruso / Norse who traveled into eastern Russia, and other places like Byzantium, didn't come into any contact with other Vikings back home or in various other parts of Europe they had colonized?"

[Nick Trueman]

Hi Merv

Yeh Id say rope or thick leather thonging? I havent seen any with chain, but they could be out there. I have no Idea how they attached them to a handle, its all speculative.

Gorelik says they are throwing maces, used not so much as killing instrument but some thing too distract, harass and if your lucky maybe knock the target out?

Now this is way out, is there anyone on the forum who has used a ancient sling? What are the chances of being able to loop the mace head through rope and then sling it?

I have know idea, just a thought.

N

[C. Gadda]

[David Huggins]

Just chipping in here guys, without reading through the whole of this thread so shoot me down if I am mentioning anything already covered.

From my own experiance with re-enactment viking age axe heads, some axe heads have a hammer projection opposite to the blade, and these hammer projections make for very effective use when combined with the axe blade, acting exactly with the same blunt trauma effect that a mace would have.

The previking age Sutton Hoo axe hammer stands out as well, but having handled a reproduction, and I think that I would agree with fellow forumite Paul Mortimer, who thinks it may have been symbolic rather then an actual weapon, to wield it as a weapon due to its considerable head heavy weight with one hand would require some exceptional and considerable strength.

I like the idea of it been used for ritual purposes, dispatching large animal sacrifices using a two handed grip, this would concur with it being a symbolic object of Kingship.

Dave

[James Aldrich]

This may be stretching the topic a bit but there is something I have always been curious about: In reading Old English works I find two words, sweord and mece, both translated as "sword." I have asked three professors about the possible distinction between the two Old English words and none was able to provide any insight. Any thoughts from this forum?

JSA

[Mikael Ranelius]

[Mikael Ranelius]

As for the original question, I've searched the SHM database and found a few of these "crowned" maces, all of them are from Gotland and are dated to the middle ages:

[Andres M. Chesini Remic]

[Len Parker]

War clubs in Saxo's History of the Danes http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/saxo/saxo07.htm

...and when he heard that Erik's champion, Hakon, was skillful in blunting swords with his spells, he fashioned, to use for clubbing, a huge mace studded with iron knobs, as if he would prevail by the strength of wood over the power of sorcery. Then -- for he was conspicuous beyond all others for his bravery -- amid the hottest charges of the enemy, he covered his head with his helmet, and, without a shield, poised his club, and with the help of both hands whirled it against the bulwark of shields before him. No obstacle was so stout but it was crushed to pieces by the blow of the mass that smote it."

"And while he chanced to be walking through a shady woodland, he plucked up by the roots all oak that stuck in his path, and, by simply stripping it of its branches, made it look like a stout club. Having this trusty weapon, he composed a short song as follows:
"Behold! The rough burden which I bear with straining crest, shall unto crests bring wounds and destruction. Never shall any weapon of leafy wood crush the Goths with direr augury. It shall shatter the towering strength of the knotty neck, and shall bruise the hollow temples with the mass of timber. The club which shall quell the wild madness of the land shall be no less fatal to the Swedes. Breaking bones, and brandished about the mangled limbs of warriors, the stock I have wrenched off shall crush the backs of the wicked, crush the hearths of our kindred, shed the blood of our countrymen, and be a destructive pest upon our land."
When he had said this, he attacked Siwald and his seven sons, and destroyed them, their force and bravery being useless against the enormous mass of his club.

[Ryan S.]

if this is a weapon what is the purpose of the crown? As far as adopting foreign weapons and battle techniques, there is a reason why there are major differences between Scandinavian culture and the various places they visited. Today, there are a variety of symbols of authority that could be derived from a club. Sceptres represent the authority of the holder, but most of them represent delegated authority. For example, marshal's batons and steward's wands, not to mention the maces that are present in many legislatures.

I gather from what people have said here that the mace was not a standard weapon of the Viking s. If it is a sceptre then I would expect to see it in depictions of Kings. As far as the Bayeux tapestry, The Study of the Bayeux Tapestry
By Richard Gameson, describes both William and Odo as having maces, as well as a different staff (baculum), that is purely a symbol and not a weapon. Since both brothers have it, perhaps it is the predecessor of the Marshall's baton. Of course, the Conquer was Norman, and more Latinized than the Vikings.

So if the Vikings didn't use them in warfare, what did they use them for? The crown suggests that they weren't reserved for thralls, and if a wide spread symbol of authority, why weren't they in burials? Perhaps they were weapons carried for everyday protection, as oppose to war. A viking can carry a spear every where, and not everyone had swords.

here is some info on Byzantine maces that could be thrown.
http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/byzrommace.php

[Elling Polden]

The Gotland maces are medevial, and probably of slavic origin.
At least in Norway, the traditional power symbol is an axe. In some early medevial texts, an axe is described as the heraldric mark of the Norwegian kings, along with a Rampant Lion. From the 1270s it is a Rampant Lion WITH an axe.

There are refrences to clubs, as Len posts above, but metal head maces do not appear before the middle ages, as far as I know.
Just hit those uppety thralls with the back of the axe. Works like a charm. (all free men that where not actively poor where required to own an axe or sword from the 950s onward. The tradition of carrying them to show status stuck until the 18th century)

By the way; A long hafted mace will fly wonderfully when thrown like a javelin. The heavy head makes it a lot more stable than a spear.

[William P]

[Ryan S.]

[Len Parker]

Elling, I just read this in Saxo:
The hero Gram makes a special mace:

Having heard from the diviners that Sigtryg could only be conquered by gold, he straightway fixed a knob of gold to a wooden mace, equipped himself therewith in the war wherein he attacked the king, and obtained his desire. This exploit was besung by Bess in a most zealous strain of eulogy:
"Gram, the fierce wielder of the prosperous mace, knowing not the steel, rained blows on the outstretched sword, and with a stock beat off the lances of the mighty. http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/saxo/saxo01.htm

Gram is the son of Skjold mentioned in Beowulf, which would make this pre-viking age.
The problem with Saxo and the Icelandic sagas is not knowing whether the writers are handing down stories unchanged, or possibly introducing new customs and fashions into the old stories. Certainly the Arthurian tales and the Sigfried and Brunhild legends were constantly being updated in every century.

[Elling Polden]