| Author |
Message |
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
 Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: Bascinet identification |
 |
|
I just came across a bascinet that I don't recognize. I was hoping to get further information on it as well as an impression from the odd text that accompanies this piece.
I found this in a small book entitled The Art of Chivalry. There is absolutely no publisher or author info for this book. There are several other books out there with this title including one from the Met. This is not that book. The intro appears to be written by Helmet Nickel (Curator of arms and armor at the Met), however.
The bascinet is attributed: Rogers Fund, 04.3.241
The Accession Number is in the same format as those from The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. Other bascinets in that collection are 29.154.3; 60.151; and 04.3.238 (which is the most like the above number).
Click photo for larger version
Here is what the book says about this piece. I find it odd and unbelievable. Your comments are invited.
Part of the fascination of armor is that a piece can often be associated with a famous historical figure. The helmet shown here--a bascinet of the type worn during the 14th and early 15th centuries--is one of these works fraught with historical associations. It is believed to be the helmet that Joan of Arc wore at the Siege of Orléans (1430), one of the turning points of the Hundred Years’ War. It is reported to have hung above the main altar of the church of St. Pierre le Martroi in Orléans (a short length of chain is still attached to its peak): it was considered to have been given as an ex voto by the Maid after she had been wounded at the siege by a crossbow bolt. There are marks of crossbow bolts on the helmet.
1: Where is the current location of this piece? Is it at the Met? Is it on display?
2: What of the association with Joan of Arc?
3: What of the crossbow-inflicted battle scars?
4: Can you point me to a book that documents this helm?
Thank you.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
    |
 |
|
Rod Parsons
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: |
|
|
Was she not hit in the shoulder by a longbow shaft? The hole in the side could be a partial puncture by a bodkin tip, or something else...
But she had no head wound.
Rod.
|
|
|
|
|
|
J. Bedell
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nathan,
I dont actually know anything about the bascinet in question but I am skeptical of the claim that it was worn by Joan of Arc. Any bascinet worn in the 14 and 15th centuries could have battle scars from a crossbow, and I am sure that any church would claim to have the helmet Joan of Arc wore if the claim would increase revenues for the church. Just my two cents worth.
-James
The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
|
|
 |
|
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: Roger fund |
|
|
Hey Nathan
I went an double checked and the Rogers Fund is the Met so it is probably still there though I do not remember it being out the last time I was there.
Craig
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rod Parsons
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: |
|
|
Looks like someone got a ruptured eardrum...
Rod.
|
|
|
|
|
Matt Phillips
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well I suppose it fits into the description of her white armor being of the Italian design rather than Gothic. Also, she reportedly did not wear a visor so that the troops may see her face. That's about the most I can make of the Joan of Arc link since I've never seen this helm before. But I also don't recall her ever being hit in the head. With a serious puncture like the one shown I would think someone would have mentioned that at some point as it would have surely caused a wound. If nothing else at least I'd say it's a unique looking bascinet and I kinda like it. I really hope someone else knows of a book that documents this piece. I'd be interested in some more of its history.
Matt
"Mine honour is my life; both grow in one; take honour from me and my life is done." William Shakespear
|
|
|
|
|
Craig Peters
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 8:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
I could be completely wrong, and maybe the puncture damage is the wrong size, but does it seem to anyone else as though it might have been caused by a bullet? The hole looks kinda round for a bolt to me.
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig Peters wrote: | | I could be completely wrong, and maybe the puncture damage is the wrong size, but does it seem to anyone else as though it might have been caused by a bullet? The hole looks kinda round for a bolt to me. |
Crossbow bolt maybe ? Bodkin possible ! But a wider broadhead??? I would expect a more diamond shaped hole then ! On the other hand I have NO expertise about what a small broadhead hole might look like.
A bullet hole might be my first impression just seeing the hole without anybody saying that a crossbow bolt is assumed to have made the hole.
One could ask if the hole has been there since the 15th century or may be more recent. ( Like some guy using it to do piercing tests in the 19th century or earlier ! Joking, but maybe somebody wanted to test out a pistol against plate or some target shooting like some people shoot holes at road signs. )
Bottom line so little is known by us at the moment that assuming that the hole was done when the Bassinet as actually being on someone's head at the time the hole was made, or even in period !
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If the bascinet is an ex voto clearly the wearer was spared from any wound in a manner that appears supernatural, otherwise it wouldn't be an ex voto ...
People spared by apparent supernatural powers from what appeared a certain death under normal life circumstances would usually go to a sanctuary and thank a Saint or the Madonna for their inetrvention: usually such interventions were asked by prayer pending a danger, the faithful would make a vow to his favourite saint to perform a religious act of devotion if spared from a disease or peril.
This habit goes straight back to roman - pagan times, the ex voto offerings fund in pagan temples are even stilistically similar to the ones still in use in catholic churches (silver hands and legs, silver harts etc).
|
|
|
|
|
|
GG Osborne
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: Bascinet |
|
|
|
For whatever another opinion is worth, my observation is that the helment certainly has a distinct feminine feel to it. The "aura" it gives is rather the impression of a steel woman's dress coif rather than a helmet per se. The upswept tip is traditionally bascinet but there is just something about the backwards sweep, that - again - appears feminine. It wouldn't take too much persuading to convince me it was made for a woman, but Joan of Arc....who knows?? George Osborne
|
|
|
|
|
Jared Smith
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joan of Arc was described as wearing a hat (definately not a helm per some statues.) Artists near the period tended to depict her with long hair and skip the hat part.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
|
|
|
|
|
Dan Howard
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
My first impression is "bullet". A better photo would be needed to make an informed opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Randall Moffett
|
| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Doesn't it look alittle to square to be a bullet... also bullets would indent a larger area from what I have seen.
Randall
|
|
|
|
|
Jared Smith
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
I admit that I don't have a lot of medieval specific ballistic knowledge. However, that looks nothing like anything I could reproduce with a modern black powder replica fired at metal sheets (signs or whatever sheet material of similar mild carbon content and thickness as armour.) I am thinking similarly to Randall Moffett...
I would expect most bullets from this era to be of slower than speed of sound. These slower moving (mass based damage) projectiles usually indent and deform anarea around the hole (inverted volcano looking effect.) The hole really isn't that sharp (not perfectly circular) in many instances either. http://www.alamy.com/stock_photography/10/1/T...0MPA7.html
Holes by arrows (very concentrated in small point) can be fairly sharp http://www.medieval.co.nz/images/aoutside%20hole.jpg
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Ruff
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2006 1:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Would think at a minimum someone wearing that would have had a serious head ache at minimum. A hit to the head - **IF** the bolt hit the head and pierced it would have caused damage and/or death.
On an off note - this is what steel looks like when hit with a bodkin.
http://www.uccrossbows.com/sitebuilder/images...27x282.jpg
Altho it doesn't show it in that pic, the inside of the hole is curled around as well and sticks out about 3/8". That was a shot that the plate stopped the bolt, however the bolt was lodged 2" inside the metal after going thru .082" of metal then 1" foam behind the metal plate and 3/8" plywood, the plywood stopped the bolt. Its my opinion that if that did the same thing and even hit maille or an arming cap and stopped - it would have dropped the wearer.
A bullet leaves a "pock" mark on a hit that doesn't break through and a push in - atleast on armor that i have seen in displays and books. When a bullet pushes thru it leaves a pushed in/rolled hole. Ever see a raod sign thats been shot? Same hole, also the inside is rolled and jagged from a bullet. A bodkin leaves a 3 or 4 finger roll.
A bolt or arrow that doesn't break in leaves a very pointed type hit mark and a light push in. Kind of like this:
http://www.uccrossbows.com/sitebuilder/images...21x279.jpg
As you can see by the plate that has the hole - very little push in. This is due to the "armor piercing" effect of a sharp metal object hitting and cutting rather then a soft object hitting and spreading as it hits.
Just my opinion tho......
David
[/url]
|
|
|
|
|
Jared Smith
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In looking a little further at this, I ran into a category of weapon I did not know of, the stone bow.
http://www.virtualworldlets.net/Resources/Hos...utStonebow
I have a suspicion that many medieval guns would have been on the order of roughly 0.5 inch (12mm) bore or larger. One might be able to scale that hole and impression and make a "probabalistic judgment" regarding if it was caused by a typical period bullet or not.
Does anyone else see any credibility to the idea that a spiked end of a hammer, mace, or similar implement could have done this?
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Ruff
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jared Smith wrote: | In looking a little further at this, I ran into a category of weapon I did not know of, the stone bow.
http://www.virtualworldlets.net/Resources/Hos...utStonebow
I have a suspicion that many medieval guns would have been on the order of roughly 0.5 inch (12mm) bore or larger. One might be able to scale that hole and impression and make a "probabalistic judgment" regarding if it was caused by a typical period bullet or not.
Does anyone else see any credibility to the idea that a spiked end of a hammer, mace, or similar implement could have done this? |
Stone bow would not have caused that. The strongest of the stone bows was called a bullet bow. It used a barrel and prod. I have 2 stone bows and a bullet bow here. The stone bows flaw was that it could not use a stout prod sue to the design. The bullet bow however could, but didn't generate enough force to puncture things, it is my opinion however that a shot to the face would severly injure - maybe kill. The germans did go one to create steel stone bows to get the prod weight up (the wood tiller would collapes otherwise) but the bullet bow was the stoutest of them all - most accurate in my experiance of building, owning and shooting them.
I have never found any refeance to the use in war. They did use them to hunt and kill rooks with. My bullet bow has a 200lb steel prod and fires a .57 cal ball. I can hit things out to about 35 yards, have put 3 shots into a 1" circle. Beyond that accuracy and power seem to fall off fast - not that i would want to get hit with it beyond that. Honestly however its an medieval oversized daisy or red ryder bb gun.
I can say this however - These three are the weapons i keep black birds and strays out of the yard with - They are very consistant and accuarate, they are about as noisy as a pump pullet gun at 5 pumps, i have even hunted squirrel and dove with all three and they provide a quick kill on small game.
Very possible that a spike caused that hole.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rod Parsons
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2006 11:50 pm Post subject: re: |
|
|
IMO it has the appearance of a bodkin strike of limited penetration, with one very visible angle, but I would not discount the possibilty of a hit from some other type of spiked weapon, though it does seem a smaller hole than I imagine would be caused by a solid hit from the spike of a warhammer.
Rod.
|
|
|
|
|
|
J Hollyfield
Location: Virginia USA Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1
|
| Posted: Sun 25 Jun, 2006 3:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
I had read of this piece some years ago on the web. It did not seem to hold merit to me then so I didn't keep the address of the referring document. There is reference to the helm on the site :[url]http://www.stjoan-center.com/novelapp/joaap06.html [/url]
It states:
| Quote: | | After World War II a helmet that might have belonged to Joan was obtained by the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. The helmet hung over the high altar of the church of Saint Pierre du Martroi in the City of Orleans and it is believed that it was a votive offering given by Joan for the healing of the wound that she received at the Tourelles. The museum now displays this helmet as part of its armor collection. |
This is the only reference I can find to it now.
The Injury that she received at Tourelles is more frequently discussed topic.[url]http://www.smu.edu/ijas/texts/joan.pdf [/url] states the following about her injury:
| Quote: | Joan, wounded in the leg (some say in the shoulder) by an arrow from a crossbow, without
seeming to pay any attention to it, did not retire from the fight but gave an example of courage to her
troops, who following her example, leaped after her into the moat of the bastile. |
That would be inconsistent with that helms damage. There is mention of a head injury she received on this same document but it does not match the damage to the helm but is interesting food for thought.
| Quote: | She had a near escape from another severe wound at Jargeau when a stone struck the light
helmet she wore and knocked her down. The Duke of Alengon recalled this accident. Fuller details
are furnished by the Journal du Siege.
The Maid was so near the wall [of the city] an Englishman heaved a heavy stone of some weight on
her head. It struck her such [a blow] she was obliged to sit down on the ground. Although this stone
was a very hard mass it broke into very small pieces, hardly injuring the Maid at all. Displaying
energetic courage, she sprang up quickly. (Q 4, 172) |
Don't know if these tidbits will help anyone, but I felt they might be worth sharing.
JD Hollyfield
"and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
|
|
|
|
|
|
Shawn Shaw
Location: Boston, MA USA Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 115
|
| Posted: Sun 25 Jun, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
What about a strike from the pick end of a warhammer, pole axe, or other melee weapon? I don't see any reason why it had to be an arrow, bullet, or crosbow bolt...
As noted, the hole is a bit squarish, as the pick of a warhammer could be. In fact, the "square" actually has it's point downward, suggesting that the blow either came from a mounted attacker swinging downward or someone on foot swingng upward. Without a closer look at the hole in question, I can't think of much more to say about that.
Just my thoughts. As for the Joan of Arc connection, I have no idea.
|
|
  |
|
|
|
This is a standard topic