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Richard Fay
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 Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | I just did a little Photoshop work on the pommel to show what it would look like with the engraved only and the inlayed with copper versions.
I'm not sure which I prefer yet: The engraved version does look very nice and would make some nice shadows while the copper inlay would be smooth and stand out less being just a difference of metal colour.
I used a screen capture of the pommel as Mark ground it from a previous post here. |
Hi Jean! 
I personally like the look of the copper-inlay concept. It seems "classier" somehow. Colour seems more attractive than shadow, but it really boils down to personal taste.
The wolf's head is cool (and almost "heraldic"), but I would have to have gone with a lion if it was my sword!  (I am Leo - hear me roar!)
Now, are you going to have your initials on one side, and the wolf's head on the other? I'm not clear on that.
It's going to be an impressive brute of a weapon, isn't it? (And I mean this only in a good way!)
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | I just did a little Photoshop work on the pommel to show what it would look like with the engraved only and the inlayed with copper versions.
I'm not sure which I prefer yet: The engraved version does look very nice and would make some nice shadows while the copper inlay would be smooth and stand out less being just a difference of metal colour.
I used a screen capture of the pommel as Mark ground it from a previous post here. |
Hi Jean!
I personally like the look of the copper-inlay concept. It seems "classier" somehow. Colour seems more attractive than shadow, but it really boils down to personal taste.
The wolf's head is cool (and almost "heraldic"), but I would have to have gone with a lion if it was my sword! (I am Leo - hear me roar!)
Now, are you going to have your initials on one side, and the wolf's head on the other? I'm not clear on that.
It's going to be an impressive brute of a weapon, isn't it? (And I mean this only in a good way!)
Stay safe! |
Yes on the initials on one side and the wolf on the other and thanks for your input about inlays or no inlays.
Up to this point the row of initials on the guard were not to be inlaided but I'm wondering about that now: Maybe all the engravings should be either inlaided or or not but not half and half ?
I don't think it has to be decided right now.
Oh, the pommel might loose some weight and become thinner for reasons of tweaking the handling as it has been mentioned before but I sort of like the look of the " Fat " pommel so I don't think it should become a very thin pommel.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | ... Up to this point the row of initials on the guard were not to be inlaided but I'm wondering about that now: Maybe all the engravings should be either inlaided or or not but not half and half ? .... |
Definitely go for the inlay on the pommel and guard - inlay is cool! 
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark G. wrote: | Ooh, I kind of like the looks of the wolf head.... It wouldn't be the easiest to do, but the best things hardly ever are. Your initials also look good though. It's a tough call.
I had a computer crash over the weekend, and have lost all of my production shots for this project so far. Luckily, I just figured out my password for this forum.
It's a bit of a leap from the previous picture of the sword to this point, but here is where it was this morning. The edge was taken down to it's approximate thickness, and the bevels were then ground in, greatly reducing the weight. You should see the size of the steel pile at the base of my grinder! I'm not exactly sure where the weight is at the moment. My shop scale only goes up to 5 lbs, and it's still a little over that. It's feeling a heck of a lot better, but I still have a long way to go with it.
It's very shiny isn't it?
Mark |
I tried to keep the wolf's head made from very angular line at least around the edges suggesting fur and the exact number of points of the zigzag are there as a guide and don't have to be identical to the drawing, also as a hand made engraving the symmetry as far as the fur is concerned can vary a bit. As long as the eyes, ears, muzzle don't look lopsided a little handmade character is also O.K. : The important thing is the general style and proportions.
The blade is looking very good although it's really tough to show the hollow grinding with a quick pic. ( Lighting is really tricky to do on reflective surfaces. )
Hard to tell how much more steel you will or can grind away but maybe another 10% to 15% of the present weight ???
I like that the main fuller ridges are nicely crisp and well defined.
As to the inlays I would imagine that the standard way to do them would be flush with the steel surface: Would slightly recessed i.e. copper surface a few millimetres below the steel surrounding them catch some nice shadows ? Probably harder to do evenly and not the way inlays should be done ! Consider it just a question about the aesthetics and practicability of making them recessed ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Tue 23 Jan, 2007 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | ... Up to this point the row of initials on the guard were not to be inlaided but I'm wondering about that now: Maybe all the engravings should be either inlaided or or not but not half and half ? .... |
Definitely go for the inlay on the pommel and guard - inlay is cool! |
Thank Steve you are sort of tilting me in that direction. Sort of 60% Neurones for / 40% Neurones against inlays at the moment.  Will have to consult with all the other vital organs and do a poll   ( O.K. sort of went nuts with that joke. )
But seriously this is a case were input can help make the decision.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Thank Steve you are sort of tilting me in that direction. Sort of 60% Neurones for / 40% Neurones against inlays at the moment. Will have to consult with all the other vital organs and do a poll ( O.K. sort of went nuts with that joke. )
But seriously this is a case were input can help make the decision. |
Hey Jean,
Go with the inlay...inlay is cool...go with the inlay...inlay is classy....go with the inlay...inlay is bright...go with the inlay...inlay is cool...go with the inlay...
(Attempt at brainwashing.)
Has this tipped the balance any closer to you deciding on going with the inlay?
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Thank Steve you are sort of tilting me in that direction. Sort of 60% Neurones for / 40% Neurones against inlays at the moment. Will have to consult with all the other vital organs and do a poll ( O.K. sort of went nuts with that joke. )
But seriously this is a case were input can help make the decision. |
Hey Jean,
Go with the inlay...inlay is cool...go with the inlay...inlay is classy....go with the inlay...inlay is bright...go with the inlay...inlay is cool...go with the inlay...
(Attempt at brainwashing.)
Has this tipped the balance any closer to you deciding on going with the inlay?
Stay safe! |
It's starting to have an effect yes.  Inlays ....... I need inlays ...... I NEED INLAYS.
O.K. back to being serious I'm starting to think that all the engravings will have inlays. Thanks for the opinions.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | Dissenting voice here: I'd avoid the inlay on the pommel, myself. For such a historical-looking sword, the inlay takes away from that, in my humble opinion.
Inlay and incised lines on the blade, however.... |
Nathan may be right here, historically speaking... 
I think that the decoration on the pommels of both the Sword of St. Maurice used in the coronation of Emperors (circa 1050-1120) and the Sword of emperor Albrecht II (circa 1400-40) is engraved without any inlay. A short (blade length 23") Oakeshott Type X (the one with the "Babewyns" on the cross) has an engraved cross in the pommel, with no obvious sign of any inlay.
However, the large Oakeshott Type XIIIa found in the Thames has a copper cross inlaid in the centre boss of the wheel pommel of Oakeshott's Type J. And Viking age swords sometimes had rather extensive (i.e. covering the whole pommel and cross) decoration of copper and other metals.
I guess, Jean, it all depends upon what look you're going for. If you're using the "Sword of St. Maurice" as the inspiration for your pommel, then engraving without inlay might be more appropriate. However, if you're making a less-historical sword, you could go with the inlay. There is at least one historical medieval sword with a copper inlay as a pommel decoration, although on a different type of pommel than what your sword will have.
I still like the look of the concept with the inlay, but that's just my personal opinion.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | Dissenting voice here: I'd avoid the inlay on the pommel, myself. For such a historical-looking sword, the inlay takes away from that, in my humble opinion.
Inlay and incised lines on the blade, however.... |
Oh Oh, back to indecision time! I wasn't planning on any inlays for the blade though !
I went back to the OlliN site http://www.ollinsworddesign.com/osd-custom-ansuz.html
As one can see the inlay is very attractive but I'm back to wondering if I like the 3D effect of just engraved lines creating depth and shadows ?
So although I don't want to base my decision(s) on just Nathan's input I also take his opinion seriously as far as historical appropriateness of the inlays.
The final make or break decision will be ultimately what looks best to my eye though ! ( As soon as I can figure out what that is. ) Historical considerations are a factor that I will factor in but not something I feel compelled to adhere to strictly.
As to inlays in the blade I might not even want to conform to what would be historical as this sword sort of exists in a vague period / fantasy limbo and I don't think I would want to pin it down to a specific place or time in real history: I guess I like borrowing / stealing from history and I want to avoid gross mismatching of different period elements, but I do allow a degree " fantasy " elements to creep in.
Oh, Nathan, do your objections include the engravings or only the filling in of the engravings with copper inlay ?
Just want to be sure of that before I decide because I'm sort of attached to the idea of the engravings and less so with the inlays.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark G.
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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If it would help in your decision, I could do up some samples of the inlay or engraved options. I have to concentrate on getting blades done at the moment, but after that I should have some time to do samples.
Mark
www.ollinsworddesign.com
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark G. wrote: | If it would help in your decision, I could do up some samples of the inlay or engraved options. I have to concentrate on getting blades done at the moment, but after that I should have some time to do samples.
Mark |
That would be useful but I hope you can find some other use for these samples and not spend to much time on them just for me: I would suggest having these on your web site as a permanent feature to help future clients in making this kind of aesthetic decisions. ( Your " Shop notes " section would seem like the right place for them. )
And, I wouldn't mind knowing if what you think will look best on my sword.
As, I've said before I can stay " undecided " until you are at the point where you need a firm decision.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Jean,
I have to agree with Nathan. To me the inlay makes the design less noticeable. To answer your earlier question about colored engraving (recessed inlay?) the only way I know of to do something like this would be to engrave or etch the design and then electroplate (a process similar to chroming) the recessed area. Not the most historical process, but it would give you the recessed contrast and color difference.
Hope this helps,
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Nate C. wrote: | Jean,
I have to agree with Nathan. To me the inlay makes the design less noticeable. To answer your earlier question about colored engraving (recessed inlay?) the only way I know of to do something like this would be to engrave or etch the design and then electroplate (a process similar to chroming) the recessed area. Not the most historical process, but it would give you the recessed contrast and color difference.
Hope this helps, |
" To me the inlay makes the design less noticeable." This is what is going to be the deciding factor as the inlays look real nice but depending on the way light hits them they may be too subtle ? I'm still weighing the options and again since there is no rush it's better to keep thinking about it than flip-flopping the final decision.
If engraved only, then how deep ? About as deep as the width of the lines maybe as a ballpark figure can could be constant to the widest part of the lines or vary with width. ( At least partly a technical question of what is the best way to do this and partly what would look good. )
Oh, and cost being a factor everything else being equal: To pay extra for inlays it would be good to really want inlays more as opposed to being right at 50 / 50 between the options.
The engraving / inlays are not part of the basic cost / quoted price and maybe I would rather apply some of that to the scabbard that Russ will be making. ( That there will be engraving is 99% sure, it's the extra cost of inlays that are under consideration. )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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J. Bedell
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Jean,
If you want everything uniform, I would suggest engraving. I think doing everything in inlay would either make it too subtle, or add too much color to the guard and pommel.
You could engrave all of the initials and have just the wolf head inlayed...
Or you could do what was discussed when you were still planning the sword, have it all engraved then have the initials on the guard underlined with copper wire, it gives you some nice inlay but doesn't make the initials too subtle.
Just some food for thought!
-James
The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| J. Bedell wrote: | Jean,
If you want everything uniform, I would suggest engraving.
have it all engraved then have the initials on the guard underlined with copper wire, it gives you some nice inlay but doesn't make the initials too subtle
-James |
Everything engraved makes sense.
Having inlays in just the wolf's head on the pommel is sort of contradictory. ( Both sides should be the same for the same reasons but still worth bringing up as an option. )
Just a line of inlay on the guard underlining the initials is both subtle and doesn't affect the consistent treatment of the rest and a good suggestion.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Jean,
Another option, instead of inlay, may be to use enamel in the engraving. The red cross on a white ground on the Henry V sword was painted on. It may have been added for his funeral, but who knows?
Other engravings or carved decoration on sword pommels may have been painted, and the paint lost over time. It's pure specualtion, but it's a possibility.
Just a thought.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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James A. Vargscarr
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I really need to speed up my review of Ansuz, because some more photos of these effects might be helpful to you. As you've said, to inlay or not to inlay will really depend on the effect you would like to create. I love the seamless blend of the copper and steel that creates the Valknut design in the pommel of my sword, but there was never any doubt that the rune had to be carved into the silver on the scabbard decoration - inlay would not have been appropriate in that context. For what it's worth, I think the wolf's head would look best as an engraving - the shadow should add a beautiful effect to the design. That said, if you were planning to display the initials on both sides of the pommel, I would have advocated copper inlay for the striking colour contrast. It's a unique effect and it's not often that one encounters it in life, so it's an especial joy to possess an example of the craft.
This is an excellent thread by the way - wonderful to follow the project's evolution in real time.
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Nate C. wrote: | Jean,
I have to agree with Nathan. To me the inlay makes the design less noticeable. To answer your earlier question about colored engraving (recessed inlay?) the only way I know of to do something like this would be to engrave or etch the design and then electroplate (a process similar to chroming) the recessed area. Not the most historical process, but it would give you the recessed contrast and color difference.
Hope this helps, |
" To me the inlay makes the design less noticeable." This is what is going to be the deciding factor as the inlays look real nice but depending on the way light hits them they may be too subtle ? .... |
Maybe I am missing something here. If so, I apologize. I agree that if you are putting the effort into having designs put into the metal using one method or another, you want to make sure you have the desired visual effect, which, I think in this case you want it to be very noticeable, rather than subtle. However, I don't understand how inlay would make the design less noticeable than engraving only. Inlay with copper wire would give you a color contrast, which you would not have with engraving only. On the other hand, under a bright light source, engraving without inlay will give you some contrast from shadow, while, on the other hand, the appearance of an inlay might wash out. So, if you are outside on a sunny day, you would notice the engraving without inlay. But sunny days are a non-issue in Canada, except for your 2 days of summer, right ?
| Quote: | | .... Oh, and cost being a factor everything else being equal: To pay extra for inlays it would be good to really want inlays more as opposed to being right at 50 / 50 between the options. .... |
True, very true. So, in the final analysis, it will be whatever floats your boat, while keeping your bank account afloat.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Steve;
Engraving catches the light better and gives a more 3D effect I think
The inlays depend on colour contrast and can be very attractive and desirable but when both are polished bright the colour difference becomes very subtle at least until a little patina sets in: I noticed this on some knives with some brass pins holding nickel silver bolsters to a full tang. When polished bright the brass pins were also invisible until the surface aged a bit.
One answer is don't polish. Or the steel could be blued to increase contrast.
Oh, I'm slightly red / green colour blind ( No I don't see in black and white and I can differentiate red from green when the colours are pure and fully saturated: But brown and green will fool me ! ).
Anyway the point being that as a graphic artist I've always been very much more sensitive than normal to contrasts of light and dark than subtle colour. It's not so much that I don't see in colour only that my personal sensitivity to certain colours or my colour spectrum doesn't match other mortals.
Not sure but this is one reason I will give more importance to contrast than colour.
In any case I appreciate all the views given and reserve the right to be fickle about the whole thing at least until I make up my mind .
Steve:
The problem up here is COLD not lack of sunlight: Today was so bright you could go blind without sunglasses.
Very cold winter days then do be more sunny than not. Oh, what we lack at this time of year are number of hours of this bright sunshine: Dark at 4:30 P.M. " depressing !
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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