[Thomas McDonald]

Residing at the Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh.

Mac

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!

Thomas,

Thanks for the link and photo (I've always wondered about that sword with four quillons, too)!

What Blair wrote in that article was interesting; it contradicted what he had said in his other works. I like the conclusion he reached, stating that the term could be used for both the two-handed sword and the basket-hilted broadsword. I believe that in a modern application (describing an existing period example in a museum or private collection, or naming a modern replica) that claymore can be acceptably applied to either type sword. Of course, Blair's article brought up the point that the Gaelic term meaning "great sword", claidheamh mor, might not have been applied to the two-handed sword during the period of its use!

Thanks again! (Oh, by the way, do you prefer to be addressed as Thomas, or Mac?)

Stay safe!

CLAYMORE!!! (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

[GG Osborne]

Without seeing the original, I have to tell you guys that is one of the most awkward looking swords (great or otherise ) that I have ever seen. Even allowing for the bend in the grip...Wow...those quillons aren't even attractive, much less (seemingly) useful. I'm sure some advocate of the Great Sword will disagree, but for my money, the reason this puppy survived is because it hung on the wall rather than at someones "side." I guess I just like the cruciform simplicity of the classic! George

[Larry Davis]

Its because of the way the targes are constructed that causes the body to warp.

Wood wants to move.

The boards are laid with the long grain running lengthwise to each other.
Wood expands across the grain so the top layer of boards want to push outwards (lets say the targe is a clock face and the grain of the face boards runs from the 12 to 6 o'clock positions) so the expansion will be to the 9 and 3 positions.
And because the back layer is binding them and it to wants to expand in the opposite direction the 9 and 3 edges of the face layer will push downwards, while the rear layers 9 and 3 positions will curve upwards.

And yes most of the period targes have this warpage, some more than others.

Also you will find that the targe makers would take advantage of this and put the strapping on so that the inside of the warp lies on the curve forearm and the rises are at the elbow and at the knuckles.
Its really comfortable!
If you construct one in the original fashion, you will find that the targe body starts to warp within the day!
Its best to let it stand and finish warping for a week before laying out for straps and leather.

The tacks are made by doming a brass blank and lead soldering a shank in place.



Cheers,

Larry.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Sort of looks like an inflatable balloon claymore with not enough air in it to keep it ............. well you know.

Needs a little more testosterone maybe.

I can see the tang bending this way if damaged instead of breaking but the wood taking a curve like this rather than splitting that seems odd ? I'm assuming wood grip. ( Horn or ivory ??? )

With 4 guards at best it seem line a processional piece and not meant for actual use.

[Thomas McDonald]

Drummond's book states that the grip is carved ivory .... {kinda looks like Oosic (Walrus bone) to me ?}

Mac or Thomas is fine, Richard !

Hi Larry
Thanks for the information .... I'd hoped you be along to enlighten us !

Mac

[Merv Cannon]

[Merv Cannon]

Wow Thomas.....You added all those great shots while I was writing the above post......is there anything you dont have pictures of ! ? ?

[Merv Cannon]

Hi Again......... I just fornd the book "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" 1100 - 1800 by David Caldwell. @ Amazon but its listed twice. The first listing is "used from $50 for hardcover, 1980." The second listing is for " new and used hardcover, 1981- from $189.24 " !!
Can someone guide me as to whats happening between 1980 and 1981 ? Second year printing must be a whole lot thicker !?

[Nathan Robinson]

[Merv Cannon]

Got it ! ............Thanks Nathan !!

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

Mac,
Thanks again for the wonderful pictures of that oddball sword!

I wondered if the grip could be from a narwhal tusk (you know, "unicorn horn"), but they might be straighter than that. Does anyone know if narwhal tusks would have such a curve? Of course, maybe it's another material carved to look like that.

I also wondered, could the tang be bent to take the shape of the grip material? Maybe the buyer specifically wanted a certain grip material, and the only piece to be had was bent. I find it hard to believe that a bend like that would occur after construction without the grip cracking or breaking!

Thanks again, Mac! I know this is getting off topic from targes, but it's still interesting just the same!

Oh, I just found a drawing of the Hawthornden sword, said to have been wielded by Robert the Bruce, in The Battle of Bannockburn 1314 by Aryeh Nusbacher. I believe it's the same sword (spiral grip, four-armed cross). The book also has a drawing of the same axe head that's displayed with the sword. The caption states that the handle is made from narwhal tusk. (I read this after I typed in the first part, really I did!)

Stay safe!

[Geoff Wood]

[Henrik Bjoern Boegh]

Larry,

Thanks for sharing that information (and the picture)! Very interesting! Making a targe seems far more complicated now than before! :-D hehe I hope I get the time to make one myself next year. :-)

Mac,

I recently recieved Drummonds book and the drawing there of that particular sword really pusseled me. Thanks for sharing those pictures.
Personally I'd guess that the original grip decayed and that a replacement was made during the 1800s after the tang had been bent...

Cheers,
Henrik

[Walter Stockwell]

[Joe Lindsay]

[Nathan Robinson]

Regarding of the dirk and targe together, I highly recommend reading "The dirk and targe: their use together" by Colin R. Rolland. it was published in The Third Park Lane Arms Fair Catalog.

Attached is one depiction of how they may have been held together.

It is asked why a person might hold and use the dirk in this fashion. It is suggested that the commonly held belief that the dirk was used offensively is quite erroneous as it is unlikely that any advantage could be made by using the slow and clumsy offensive back-handed slashes that this position would allow. After all, the hand is weighed down by the heft of the targe and the hand's movement is greatly effected by its being strapped into the shield.

Instead two suggestions are presented: the first is that it would provide easy access to the dirk should the wielder's sword become unavailable for any reason. If this were to happen, the dirk would be immediately available without delay. The second suggestion is that, by holding it point downward, a defensive opportunity has presented itself.

Because of the position and size of the targe, the upper body is quite well protected by it, but the lower torso and legs are quite exposed to a cut. The article goes on to suggest that such attacks can be parried by a lateral and downward movement of the targe so as to lock the opponent's weapon between the dirk blade and the targe's edge, "thus unbalancing the adversary and exposing him to a swift courterattack."

[Henrik Bjoern Boegh]

Nathan,
I've thought of the defencive option myself, and I think it seems very logical and practical. But I don't think that offensive use of the dirk when held behind the targe should be completely ruled out either.
Whenever I read discussions about the useage of the dirk held behind the targe the participants allmost allways seem to believe that there is only one true method (for instance; they either think the hand left hand holds both the targe-handle and the dirk at the same time or they think the arm is slipped through the handle). Personally I think the warriors who used these weapons would be aware of different ways of using it, and would apply the method they themselves found most effective, both for defence and offence.

Cheers,
Henrik

[GG Osborne]

Let's go back to the spike issue again: Does anyone have a feel for how long these spikes were? or what percentage of targes actually had a spike? Is this just another disservice to historical Scotdom by David Morier? Were they round, or square? Screwed in or fixed in place? If one were to make a reproduction for a targe, what would it look like? Inquiring minds want to know! George

[Merv Cannon]