Scottish Targes - Earliest Use ? Had Viking Influence ? -- myArmoury.com

Lin Robinson · Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject:

Martin...

Thanks for the information on the book. I don't think I have that one. Will have to try to obtain one.

A metal plate should not be hard to spot on an X-ray!

Martin Wilkinson · Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject:

Merv Cannon · Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: Targaids

I just found this image on the web.........they look great to me, but im sure no expert.........One of them has fur hanging over the top of his targe and I have seen this several times used by reenactors.......I presume that this would help stop sword blow damage ?

Lin Robinson · Posted: Fri 03 Nov, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject:

Maybe, but it looks more efficient as decoration.

Martin Wilkinson · Posted: Sat 04 Nov, 2006 3:04 am Post subject:

I'm not sure that group is historically accurate.... one of them is using a rapier, not a very scottish weapon...

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Merv Cannon · Posted: Sat 04 Nov, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: Targe

Ok, so the bunny-skin on top of that Targe is just for effect. ...... thats OK.
Now......so, whats the earliest pictorial representation of what we now know as a Targaid ? Can anyone quote a reference or even better , post an image ?

Thanks !

Larry Davis · Posted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: Bullet proof targes?

I have personaly examined over 30 period targes and all are of the pegged, cross ply / laminated type.
All made of wood, some of oak others of pine or Scotts pine ( similar to Jack pine or a northern fir).

But none matching the targe described above, nor have I seen any with a metal core or interior ply of metal.

I have made seven targes with the proper constrution techniques and materials that I intend to do controlled
ballistic testing on this spring.
All I have to do is make the jig to hold the targe and the accelerometre and Roberts your fathers brother!

There persists a group of people that maintain that a targe will stop a .75 cal musket ball!
I have seen a number of targes with holes in them, must be Highland moths or perhaps midges.

Cheers,

Larry

Larry Davis · Posted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject:

This is one of the X-rays that I have been using.
I hope it will be of some use to the members.

The plates that are showing are the decorative brass sheeting on the targe face, allso you can see the staple / nut attachment that holds the spike in place. This is placed under the brass boss.

Cheers,

Larry.

Lin Robinson · Posted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Bullet proof targes?

Merv Cannon · Posted: Mon 06 Nov, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Bullet proof targes?

Henrik Bjoern Boegh · Posted: Thu 09 Nov, 2006 9:14 am Post subject:

From Highland Clansman 1689 - 1746 by Stuart Reid. The illustration is by Angus McBride and based upon the description "by one Henry Fletcher, brother of the famous Laird of Saltoun in 1716".

Cheers, Henrik

Lin Robinson · Posted: Thu 09 Nov, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: Targes

Thanks Henrik...

I goofed. The letter writer was Henry Fletcher and Alexander was the recepient of the piece.

The illustration, as stated, definitely comes from the Fletcher description. The targe represented is also from the same article in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100 - 1800" by David Caldwell. The photo of an original targe from the Gwynn collection is in the article but there is no mention of it being "bullet proof". In fact, the feature of the targe that is prominently discussed, is the boss in the middle, which can be unscrewed and used as a drinking cup.

One thing I have neglected to mention was a description of a Highland warrior written by John Campbell in 1752. Campbell describes the targe as being bullet proof, but gives no detail on its destruction. Certainly his description, written well after the final disarming act, is not made from first hand observation and probably eludes to Fletcher's.

Thanks again for posting the picture. Now I can cancel the order I have in for the book.

Larry Davis · Posted: Thu 09 Nov, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject:

Hi Lin,

Thanks for the posting, I agree that a metal core targe would be to heavy to be of any practical use.
If I might inquire as to the location of the targes that you examined? I'm always looking for more examples to study.

Merv,

The face leather was about 1/8'' in thickness and did not show any evidence of 'hardening'.
It was brittle and cracked but that was just from age and handling. Some had been tooled and a few had areas that were coloured or dyed.
On a couple the leather was still flexible!
So if you used 1/8" cow hide on the face and say 1/16th deer or calf hide on the back it would be fairly close to what was used.

As to the types of wood used, I saw only oak, pine, fir (European) and the Scots pine (Pinus sylvestris L.; family Pinaceae)
and yes the pine was soft but then the strength is in the pegged laminations.
The targe was mainly used to deflect or parry a blow rather than to take it point on so it could be light.
The oak ones weighed in at about 8lbs on average while the lighter woods around 5 or 6 depending on the method of arm straps and how ornate the metal work.
The Scots pine was also known as 'deal' and most of the wood used in Scotland of that time was imported from Europe(Germany , Balkans etc.).

A few targes had a brass rim on the outside edge and showed cut marks at the 10 to 12 o'clock positions.

Yes there is a wood strength comparison list, three volumes, but I do not have them to hand at the moment.
You should be able to find something on the net though.

Hi Henrik,

Thanks for posting that picture, I spent about four hours with that particular targe and had the opportunity to discuss it with David Caldwell as well.
A fabulous piece, If I recall correctly it had an oak core and weighed about 8 1/2 lbs.
No metal insides just oak laminate, an in no way 'bullet proof'.

Check out the photo albums section under 'targe' for some really great photos of targes.

Cheers Larry.

Lin Robinson · Posted: Thu 09 Nov, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: Targes

Larry...

I examined two targes at a gun show in Charlotte, NC, about eight years ago. The gentleman selling them said they were original and they certainly looked it. One had a metal rim, the other did not. The leather was cracked rather badly and the straps were gone. They were not particularly heavy and neither had a provision for a spike nor was the leather tooled. They were both heavily tacked but had no brass or steel plates. I have frequented the same gun show location since, but the guy has never been back so I have no name, address or any other information to provide. As near as I can recall, he wanted in excess of $800 for each. Could have been a great buy or not.

Sorry not to have been more help.

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

The Gwynn Targaid, residing athe Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh.

Photos - T. McDonald, 2005

Merv Cannon · Posted: Fri 10 Nov, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: Targaids

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

Martin Wilkinson · Posted: Fri 10 Nov, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject:

That targe is stunning.

The background looks like linen or similar so it's probably faded, but it could well have been pink at the time. Personally, i think it looks good with pink.

GG Osborne · Posted: Fri 10 Nov, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject:

It's interesting that the Penicuik sketches from c. 1745-46 show several concave targes. Artistic license, perhaps? But the unknown artist also shows basket hilts with curved and clipped blades.