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Torsten F.H. Wilke
Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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 Posted: Sat 11 Nov, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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If there can be grossly over-proportioned bearing swords, where are the requisite 8lb bearing Rondel-daggers???  
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Allen G.
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| Posted: Sat 11 Nov, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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I was just kidding, Chad. I found irony in making a 'battle ready' sword it would be difficult to even lift without having the tip drag on the ground.
To preserve western history we must ensure a future for western blood and culture.
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Kyro R. Lantsberger
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| Posted: Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:39 am Post subject: |
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You guys are all wrong. Those heavy swords were carried by mounted troops. When they dismounted their horses to use the loo or whatever, they would tie their reins to the sword so that their mounts couldnt wander off.
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 13 Nov, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You guys are all wrong. Those heavy swords were carried by mounted troops. When they dismounted their horses to use the loo or whatever, they would tie their reins to the sword so that their mounts couldnt wander off. |
And they had to have something to cut trees and chop stones.Japanesse have different style-their razor sharp and feather light katanas could do the same because of its indestructible holywoodium steel and ki power after 100years of training in Battle Monks Ninja School .
www.elchon.com
Polish Guild of Knifemakers
The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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David Martin
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Mon 13 Nov, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Carl Goff wrote: | | David Martin wrote: | I've told this story here before, but I can't resist retelling it. I was in a "sword" shop in New Hope, PA several years ago. There was a sword hanging on the wall that was absolutely massive: The blade looked to be almost five feet long, about three inches wide at the crossguard, and was incredibly thick - something on the order of 3/8". The grip looked to be about 15" with a monstrous crossguard made of brass, styled in the fashion of a Scottish Claymore, only absurdly large. The pommel was huge - the size of my fist (and I have large hands). The weight as listed was 67 pounds. No decimel point between the six and seven, but a full 67 pounds.
When I politely questioned the store owner, he asserted that this was an accurate replica of a Claymore. He also added that he used that sword to smash an engine block. I had no doubts that he was successful in this endeavor.
I left the shop with a smile.  |
Holy cow. How buff was the owner? (I'm assuming very.)
I ask because I'm a long way from the weakest man in the world, but I couldn't even swing that abomination. |
Abomination is a good word for it. 
The shop owner was fairly slight of build and not in exceptional condition if memory serves, and presented like a fellow who spent a lot of time playing fantasy role playing games and didn't get outdoors very often. My guess is that if he did in fact use the "weapon" to smash an engine block that he brought the sword up to his shoulder and let gravity take it from there. The weapon was far too big to swing.
I wonder if there is any correlation between physical fitness and perceptions of sword weight. My logic is that a person who is in good physical condition may have a better idea of what the human body is capable of doing. Obviously having an understanding of rudimentary sword techniques would be a better predictor, but this aside, I wonder if people who are in poor shape are more likely to overestimate the strength of others.
I suspect that this is why so many people focus on the weight a person can bench press as a measure of strength, to the exclusion of almost everything else. For example, when my older brother Dan was in his late 20s, I saw him straight-arm a barbell weighing 100 pounds, which he held for at least five seconds before slowly lowering it back down. A hundred pounds may not sound like a lot of weight, but try raising it by locking your elbows and holding it straight in front of you. It takes an understanding of body mechanics to appreciate the difficulty of the feat - much in the same way that we understand that swinging a 20 pound sword is a completely impractical endeavor.
More grist for the mill...
"When war-gods meet to match their might,
who can tell the bravest born?
Many a hero never made a hole
in another man's breast."
- Sigurd, The Lay of Fafnir
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Tim Harris
Industry Professional
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Mon 13 Nov, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Chad Arnow"] | Allen G. wrote: |
The reproduction you linked to, though called "battle-ready," is overweight if it weighs 20 pounds or it's a bearing sword, not designed for combat. Just because a maker claims battle-readiness doesn't mean it is. "Battle-ready" is the most over-used and incorrectly applied marketing buzzword used in this industry. |
Not only that... the blurb managed to squeeze in a bunch of myths for the price of one. No wonder tales of the 20 pound sword are still flourishing.
"handmade high carbon steel blade over 4-1/2 ft. long and forged over hot coals" ... as opposed to a zinc blade forged over fresh butter pats?
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Carl Goff
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| Posted: Mon 13 Nov, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| David Martin wrote: | [
Abomination is a good word for it.
The shop owner was fairly slight of build and not in exceptional condition if memory serves, and presented like a fellow who spent a lot of time playing fantasy role playing games and didn't get outdoors very often. My guess is that if he did in fact use the "weapon" to smash an engine block that he brought the sword up to his shoulder and let gravity take it from there. The weapon was far too big to swing.
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Ah, I see. What a fool that guy was.
Oh, East of sands and sunlit gulf, your blood is thin, your gods are few;
You could not break the Northern wolf and now the wolf has turned on you.
The fires that light the coasts of Spain fling shadows on the Eastern strand.
Master, your slave has come again with torch and axe in his right hand!
-Robert E. Howard
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W Purcell
Location: north carolina Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sun 31 Dec, 2006 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the humor Mr. Robinson! It's part of what inspired me to register!
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sun 31 Dec, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| David Martin wrote: |
I wonder if there is any correlation between physical fitness and perceptions of sword weight. My logic is that a person who is in good physical condition may have a better idea of what the human body is capable of doing. Obviously having an understanding of rudimentary sword techniques would be a better predictor, but this aside, I wonder if people who are in poor shape are more likely to overestimate the strength of others.
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David,
This topic indirectly came up in an earlier thread of mine: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=0. Though I don't think I explicitly mentioned it in the thread, I've noticed that more athletic people who haven't handled higher end replicas before are more inclined to be impressed by the way they handle. Another observation that I've made is that women have more often commented that my replicas are heavy than men have, although this might be due to the fact that I haven't had that many people handle the swords I own, so there's most likely problems with statistical reliability.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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And, despite all the buzz about gender equality, women in general still tend to be less muscular than men--and less likely to seriously study swordsmanship.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Finally...
I was able to find my souvenir books from my visits to Warwick Castle, and here is the so-called Sword of Guy. It is listed in two separate castle publications as being 5' 5 1/4" long and weighing 15 lbs. 1 oz.
 Attachment: 63.03 KB
Hilt shot with caption about Guy of Warwick from the 1994 castle booklet. [ Download ]
Attachment: 28.89 KB
Overall photo of the Sword of Guy from the 1990 castle booklet. (note, The pommel is more symmetrical than it appears in the photo. The distortion is due to the curve of the booklet page.) [ Download ]
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
J.G.,
Thanks for sharing the pictures of Guy's sword.
I would think that, if this sword was made for something other than purely display, that it was intended as a bearing sword. These were often "oversized' swords of above-average weight. They were never intended for battle; they were meant to be impressive objects carried in solemn processions. Fifteen pounds one ounce is just a bit heavier than the fourteen pounds and six ounces of the bearing sword in the Royal Armouries Collection. This English bearing sword (presumably one of the processional swords of the early Lancastrian kings) is 91 inches long (231.1 cm) long - that's over seven feet! There's a German bearing sword of more modest size - a mere 70 1/2 inches long (just under 6 feet).
Bear in mind that these bearing swords were never meant to be used in battle; they were purely for show. They were made using different geometry than a real working sword. They were meant to grab the attention!
Here's a picture from Ewart Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword that shows the German bearing sword of circa 1320-40 with a blade length of 50 inches and an overall length of 70 1/2 inches:
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German Bearing Sword (Type XX. 1) from Records of the Medieval Sword.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Richard,
Thanks! I did know that it is a bearing sword, I just like the story that goes along with it and could not resist posting it. A larger than life sword for a larger than life character!
Jonathan
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| J.G. Hopkins wrote: | | Thanks! I did know that it is a bearing sword, I just like the story that goes along with it and could not resist posting it. A larger than life sword for a larger than life character! |
J.G.,
I always try to post information for everyone, just in case people new to this hobby are perusing the forums, so I hope I didn't seem like I was assuming you didn't know. I'm something of a writer anyway, so I can't seem to stop writing sometimes.
I think it is an appropriate sword for the legendary character of Sir Guy of Warwick. I once saw a television program about Warwick Castle, one of the episodes of "Great Castles of Europe", I believe, and they talked a bit about the legendary Sir Guy. He fought all sorts of foes, monstrous and mundane, and then went on Crusade. It was a story with a bittersweet end, if I recall correctly.
Definitely a larger-than-life character, who should certainly have a larger-than-life sword! It's amazing the stories that become attached to some of these objects, even if they are obviously just romantic fantasies!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | I always try to post information for everyone, just in case people new to this hobby are perusing the forums, so I hope I didn't seem like I was assuming you didn't know. I'm something of a writer anyway, so I can't seem to stop writing sometimes. |
Good point. I hadn't thought of that!
IIRC the White Tower has a number of unbelievably large bearing swords, but they did not look to be as old as the sword attributed to Guy. Any ideas as to the age of Guy's sword based on the photos?
Jonathan
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| J.G. Hopkins wrote: | IIRC the White Tower has a number of unbelievably large bearing swords, but they did not look to be as old as the sword attributed to Guy. Any ideas as to the age of Guy's sword based on the photos?
Jonathan |
Jonathan,
By the White Tower, I'm assuming you mean the Royal Armouries Collection, correct? I mentioned one of those, as shown in Treasures from the Tower of London, as an example of a bearing sword. This particular sword I spoke of earlier dates to the early fifteenth century. The Guy sword has a roughly similar pommel, but so do swords dating earlier.
The German bearing sword of circa 1320-40, shown in Records of the Medieval Sword, is in very good condition (check out the photo I posted earlier), but other swords from that time are not. Condition of a sword can vary tremendously depended upon how well it was cared for. A well-cleaned and cared-for medieval sword can be fairly pristine-looking, but a neglected one can gather all sorts of patina and pits over the years.
I wouldn't really hazard to guess a date for the Sword of Guy. If it is a genuine Medieval bearing sword, it could date to the 14th or 15th centuries. I worry a bit about the looks of it, though; it looks rather "clunky" as compared to other examples. Even the bearing swords still seem to have an "elegant" look to them. The Sword of Guy almost looks crude in comparison. The cross especially worries me. Although some medieval crosses were "chunkier" than others, the Guy swords cross just looks a bit too "chunky".
All of this is just a gut feeling; I could be wrong. I should point out that a photo alone is a poor way to try to date a sword. It would take an examination to look for maker's marks and other clues. Even then, sometimes it's difficult to date a sword, especially if there are no clear marks or other clues. Oakeshott talked a bit about the hazards of dating swords in Records of the Medieval Sword.
Admittedly, there are others here who may be a bit more qualified to comment on the subject of dating a sword, but I believe that it would be difficult (and probably impossible) based on those photos alone.
I hope this made sense!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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This is a standard topic