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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Throwing hammers and other missile weapons         Reply with quote

Does anyone know how popular throwing hammers were in Europe?
How effective were they compared to other missile / throwing weapons?


The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons Edited by Leonid Tarassuk & Claude Blair

War hammer
[Last paragraph)]
"From the 14th to early 16th centuries, a special type of the war hammer was used in central Europe as a missile weapon, which was given a spinning motion in flight. Functionally similar to the throwing axes, these war hammers had a conical pointed head with a spike and a fluke, and the steel handle was also sharply pointed at the bottom. In its simplest form, the throwing hammer had the form of a Latin cross whose four pointed arms were designed to inflict a wound however the weapon hit."


I managed to find a pic of a throwing hammer at Hermann Historica, see attached.

Does anyone know of any period illustrations showing them in use or any period writings describing their use?

What other throwing weapons were used in warfare throughout history (I know of the Hurlbat, Francisca, Chakram, Darts, Javelins, Slings, Bow and Crossbows)?

Were there any types of knives that were specifically used for throwing?

Thanks

Danny
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Nick Trueman





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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi

There is a khazar multiple knife sheath wich has been suggested to have been used to house throwing knives.
The knives themselves are simple wich suggests that maybe this is true.

Their is a referance to these knives in Companion to Arms and Armour, in Michael Gorelicks chapter about eastern euro arms.

Throwing maces too!

Nick
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Allen Andrews




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the pic. That is an interesting weapon and I am tempted to have a smith I know make one for me. Might be fun to toss around while walking the dogs in the Maine woods (provided I don't loose it of course Happy)
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Throwing hammers and other missile weapons         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
Does anyone know how popular throwing hammers were in Europe?
How effective were they compared to other missile / throwing weapons? ....

The example in the photo that you posted seems rather smaller than I imagined. If I read the caption correctly (I don't know German, so this is 'iffy'), the piece is only 36cm (14.17in) in length. It doesn't seem to me to pack enough mass at any of the points to be very effective as a thrown impact weapon.

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Byzantine cavalry occationally used throwing hammers, of a traditional short hafted sledgehammer design.

Another contribution to the arsenal of nastiness was the Plumbata; a short dart, with a lead weight and a long, thin barbed head. These where carried by later roman and byzantine troops, as a replacement for the traditional javelin. While not very lethal, having a lead weight hanging from your arm is quite incapacitating.

To steve:
The chance of outright killing someone with a thrown weapon is rather low anyhow. As such, making it smaller and more convenient might be a good tradeof.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all!

Danny,

The throwing hammer you showed looks a bit like a different form of hurlbat. I know you mentioned hurlbats in your post, but just in case others would like to see, I've posted a link and a picture. The throwing hammer looks like a hurlbat with the axe-head replaced with a spike.

Compare your picture of the throwing hammer to the pictures of hurlbats here (I think at least one looks on the small size):

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=hurlbat

And in the pictures below. (I see a bit of a familial resemblance, but maybe it's just me.)

Stay safe!



 Attachment: 24.82 KB
wag05-20.JPG
Plate 20 Part 5 "Hurlbats" from Medieval Costume, Armour and Weapons.

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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nick Trueman wrote:

Throwing maces too!


Quite true! Like in the image of a possible mace in-flight from the Bayeux Tapestry. I posted this before, but I might as well post this again here (note the short-hafted weapon with the "bulbous" head in the centre of the image):



 Attachment: 53.35 KB
Mace_from_Bayeux_Tapestry.JPG
Mace in-flight from the Bayeux Tapestry.

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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What other throwing weapon?

Hm. Do stones count? They seem to have been used in almost every single war for which there is a detailed account, although they are definitely not purpose-built weapons if that's what you mean. Central Asian peoples had a variety of throwing axes/hammers--they didn't see these as separate weapons, but rather as a continuum from blunt hammerheads to narrow armor-piercing axes and finally to the broad-headed axes inspired by the utility tool.
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all!

If you want to talk throwing weapons worldwide, and not just European, then you must include throwing clubs. The Australian boomerang is perhaps the most famous, but there were others in different times and places.

Australian aborigines used many different sorts of throwing sticks and clubs. Some were of a boomerang shape, while others had bulbous heads. The non-returning kind were used in war. There is a throwing club from the DeGrey River area of NW Australia that has serrations carved in relief around the head to make a blow by hand more effective. When thrown, the pointed end was intended to strike the target.

Ancient Egyptians used throwing sticks to hunt birds and small game.

The Zulu knobkerrie could be used as a throwing weapon. It consisted of a short stick with a knob at one end, made from wood or rhinoceros horn.

The natives of Fiji used a hardwood throwing club.

There are also a weird assortment of throwing knives used in Africa. Many of these have multiple-points so they can cut or pierce no matter how they strike.

I hope this was of interest!

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar


Last edited by Richard Fay on Sat 06 Jan, 2007 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again!

Here's one example of an African throwing knife, with the information and the picture:
Quote:

Throwing Knife
(Kpinga)
Uele River Basin, Congo region
Niam Niam Culture
early 20th c.

iron

Thrown horizontally at the legs of an enemy or vertically at the body. The Azande kpinga is generally seen as the most perfectly balanced, weighted, and effective missile among the southern throwing knives.

Sutton Collection

MAC1966-164



 Attachment: 10.06 KB
1966-164throwingknife.jpg
African Throwing Knife.

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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again!

I found an interesting reference to an ancient European throwing weapon in The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms & Weapons, edited by Leonid Tarassuk and Claude Blair. Here's what the entry said regarding the cateia:
Quote:

cateia A throwing weapon consisting of a pointed head fixed to a flexible pole, more than 1 m (3 ft.) long, with nails; at the center of the pole there was a loop, which was used for throwing the cateia and picking it up. The earliest literary reference to it appeared in Virgil (70-19 B.C.), who referred to its use by the people of Campania, although he attributed its origin to the Germanic or Celtic people. Aulus Gellius (2nd century A.D.) mentioned it as a throwing weapon and included it among the tela and the jacula.


Stay safe!

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George Hill




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard Fay wrote:
Nick Trueman wrote:

Throwing maces too!


Quite true! Like in the image of a possible mace in-flight from the Bayeux Tapestry. I posted this before, but I might as well post this again here (note the short-hafted weapon with the "bulbous" head in the centre of the image):


Does anyone think those might be plumbata?

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Richard Fay wrote:
Nick Trueman wrote:

Throwing maces too!


Quite true! Like in the image of a possible mace in-flight from the Bayeux Tapestry. I posted this before, but I might as well post this again here (note the short-hafted weapon with the "bulbous" head in the centre of the image):


Does anyone think those might be plumbata?


How about the Bolo ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleadoras

Qualifies as a throwing weapon and could very remotely look like a bulbous mace when thrown ? A true Bolo with three balls or a single rock / stone tied to a rope.

It's a stretch I'll admit as I have never read the possibility that what is assumed to be a thrown mace in the Bayeux Tapestry might be the above. Eek! Well, this might be worth just thinking about. Question

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="George Hill"]
Richard Fay wrote:

Does anyone think those might be plumbata?


The plubata has the weight roughly in the middle;
http://www.romancoins.info/plumbata.jpg

It would have a short wooden shaft, to stabilice it...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all!
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
How about the Bolo ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleadoras
Qualifies as a throwing weapon and could very remotely look like a bulbous mace when thrown ? A true Bolo with three balls or a single rock / stone tied to a rope.


Hi Jean!

The "mace" actually a bolo? Who knows? It's very hard to interpret the Bayeux Tapestry because of the limitations of the medium and the style of the piece.

However, the possible airborne mace does look similar to other possible maces from the Bayeux Tapestry. Check out the images on this thread:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...light=mace

Compare the mace held by the Norman lord and those carried by the fleeing Anglo-Saxons to the possible airborne mace. I think they are all basically the same thing. Of course, it's all conjecture, since the Bayeux Tapestry can be unclear on a lot of the details.

Bolos are a good addition to the thrown weapons list, though! Plumbata, too!

Stay safe!

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard;

Yes I agree the odds of the one in the Bayeux Tapestry being a Bolo as slim to none but I just made my point or rather " A "
point that the drawing style and the medium of the tapestry is such that it cannot show any details.

A lot there has in the past been used to " guess " about things like scale, ring or banded maille etc ....... Things mostly 19th century guesswork. ( Scale might still be valid or currently accepted. )

Anyway, lets say that the tapestry had just been discovered by an Argentinean Historical researcher he might jump to conclusions about what the thrown mace might be a bolo: The point not being that it does represent a bolo but only that with vague input the human mind will go with what is familiar as a best guess.

My second reason to mention the bolo is because it does fit the original topic as you mentioned.

Just call it a " how many angels can dance on a pin argument " just for the fun of it. Razz Laughing Out Loud ( Just joking with this last comment Big Grin )

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jan, 2007 8:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Norse sagas describe a thowing weapon called a "pálstafr", which is, most likely, a stone attached to a handle.
They are mentioned mainly in naval battles; The Kingsmirror advices that one should have heavy Pĺlstaf, to throw at the enemy's shield, and then attack him with a light javelin should the shield be knocked aside.

for natural reasons there are no finds of these, nor pictures that I know of.

Other than that, all kinds of spears where a favourite. Interesting enough, it seems flint tipped throwing spears where still in use well into the middle ages, if the interpretation of the sagas is correct; King Sverre himself used "Skjeptifletta" javelins when fighting on horseback in the 1190's.

There is little mention of throwing axes in the sagas as far as I've gathered; However, stones feature heavily. Throwing stones is mentioned as a good martial skill, along with spear throwing and archery.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Martin Forrester




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anybody know of evidence of Hurlbats or similar in the Wars of the Roses? I know they were being used in Germany at that time, but would like to know if they were used in England. ta
Oh, lets just pull out our swords and start whacking at each other, that'll solve everything!
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George Hill




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Elling Polden"]
George Hill wrote:
Richard Fay wrote:

Does anyone think those might be plumbata?


The plubata has the weight roughly in the middle;
http://www.romancoins.info/plumbata.jpg

It would have a short wooden shaft, to stabilice it...


Yes, with all the biodegrable material still attached, it would look like this.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/P1110141.jpg

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Richard Fay




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all!

Hey George!

I just saw the image at the link you posted of the reconstructed plumbata and the first thought that crossed my mind: lawn darts! Not the "safe" versions they make now, but the metal-tipped ones they made when they first came out with lawn-darts. I believe they might have actually eventually recalled them, and they certainly redesigned them to be safer. Apparently, people were getting hurt with unsharpened lawn darts. (My family had a set of the old ones - they had a fairly good heft to them, and probably could do some damage to a person!) I can imagine what a sharpened and barbed version could do!

Stay safe!

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