The Maciejowski "Glaive" -- myArmoury.com

David McElrea · Posted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject:

Hi Bart,
Some great pics there-- am I right in thinking that many of them are different weapons? In a number of instances they seem to be large double edged swords, albeit missing a cross. Interesting, though.

In case anyone missed the falchion thread, Sean Flynt supplied a link which contains the same weapon we have been discussing. While it may be sematics, it is interesting to note that the site (Russian) refers to it as a two-handed sabre.

David

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Bart,
Thank you so much!
This is wonderful material.
It will take some time for me to digest this!
Will get back as soon as I have regained sense of direction... Big Grin

Daniel Watson · Posted: Fri 06 Feb, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject:

I like the design very much. I used a similar piece for tameshigiri / straw mat cutting.
http://www.angelsword.com/videos/videos.html

Daniel

Sergey E. Semagin · Posted: Sat 07 Feb, 2004 8:38 am Post subject:

David McElrea · Posted: Sat 07 Feb, 2004 11:07 am Post subject:

Greg Thomas Obach · Industry Professional

Hi
I've been wondering bout The Maciejowski "Glaive" for days now.... and it finally hit me.. !
As I was looking at some antique farm tools on display in my rec room.... I realized that the two handed glaive in the picture is very close to the blade on an antique scythe that I have....

It looks as if:
the curved scythe blade has been reforged straight, and the tang has also been straightened to fit the new handle....

If you look closely.... the Glaive even has the same T-spine that scythe's typically have...

Greg

Kenneth Enroth · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 4:14 am Post subject:

I recently made a full size drawing of the weapon that is shown cleaving an armoured knight in two. Forget about XIIIa's and such. This sword must be the king of cleavers. Maybe I'm going to call it that if I get one made Laughing Out Loud

. I think I got the scale down adequately. I measured the wielders forearm between wrist and elbow and then measured my own to get the scale. The length of the weapon scaled from my size is 161 cm or about 64 inches. So there is a definite case for the use of two-handed swords in the 13th century. In fact I think this is a more unlikely weapon than a standard twohander., such as are attributed to the scottish heroes Willam Wallace and Robert Bruce.

The more I look at it I get the feeling that it is built to be a sword. The proportions are too good for it to be a cut down pole arm. I compared it to my drawing of a six foot zweihander that I would like to have made some day. Side by side the length of the handles are comparable. The ricasso on the zweihander matches the area on the Maciejowski weapon before the cutting edge starts. The blade on the zweihander is somewhat longer but not by much considering the size of the weapons. The proportions match even though there are centuries between them.

I don't think the zweihander would stand a chance in a cutting competition. If any sword can cleave people in half it is the Mac. "king of cleavers". The blade is a handsbreath wide at the base, over 9 cm. Like a kriegsmesser on steroids.

The absence of a crossguard is curious. Maybe the hollowed out area before the cutting edge begins is meant to protect the hands from smacking into shields. There is no protection from a blade sliding into the hands.

Some of the swords in the Mac bible including this one has blackened blades. That would be interesting to see, an XII with a black blade.

Kenneth Enroth · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 6:20 am Post subject:

I just came to think of how this massive weapon is like a historical cloud buster sword. Many old threads on SFI contain rants about anime fans bugging smiths to build them one. So if any anime fans are reading this just tell the smith to make a replica of the Maciejowski glaive with just a couple of mods, like no profile taper and a tanto point. Laughing Out Loud

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 7:53 am Post subject:

I don't know how I missed this thread before! It's great!
I'd vote for calling these proto-falchions (or Ur-Messers for our Euro friends Big Grin

)

Steve Fabert · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 8:52 am Post subject:

Gabriel Stevens · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 11:06 am Post subject:

Greg's Farm tool comparison goes along with something I've been wondering. From what I gathered from what Peter's posts it seems that at least some thought to handling was put into these things, but their construction seems to be much simpler than a conventional sword (or at least the original monster pictured does). Makes me wonder if these were like "The poor man's" sword, though I suppose if the weilder pictured can afford a mail harness......

Alina Boyden · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 11:35 am Post subject:

Hi all, this weapon is called a "faussar/faussart." It is of French origin and in use during the high middle ages when the Maciejowski bible was created. Cardinal Bernard Maciejowski, the man who commissioned the work, was also a Frenchman I believe. Pictures of this weapon can be seen in the Osprey book Knights Hospitaller, by David Nicolle. He also includes line drawings of faussarts in a couple of his other books. It appears that this weapon was like a falchion - quite common in literature but few surviving examples. I'm very interested in getting a quality faussart. I'm going to pick up the MRL version because it is the only one that I've found available. Though Manning Imperial I believe takes custom orders and they'd probably be willing to do it. It is certainly a fascinating weapon and one ideally suited to fighting mail armored knights.

Kenneth Enroth · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject:

Hi Alina

About the origin of the Mac bible. On Medievaltymes.com it says that the work was commissioned by king Louis IX of France. Cardinal Maciejowski was a later owner of the work.

The name "faussart" does it refer to the shorter "chopper" or the longer "glaive"?

Alina Boyden · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject:

Alina Boyden · Posted: Fri 24 Sep, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject:

Ok back at home and able to bring resources to bear. Dr. Nicolle describes this weapon as a "faussar." Faussart would be an optional spelling. Apparently there are some period French sources that refer to the use of the faussar in literary examples. I'll have to dig harder to find anything in the realm of archaeological artifacts.

Brian M · Posted: Sat 25 Sep, 2004 9:54 pm Post subject:

Sounds like the same root word as the falchion -- i.e. "fauchon" if I am spelling that correctly.

Brian M

David McElrea · Posted: Sun 26 Sep, 2004 4:52 am Post subject:

Alina,

Thanks for providing us with a name at last-- it seemed strange that a weapon could have been so completely forgotten that it's name was lost to us!

I would love to know where Dr Nicolle found the term...

Peter (I can't remember if you had already commented on this, but) do your sketches mean you are thinking of reproducing one of these?

Kenneth, I agree that it is used primarily as a sword-- if you do get one made, you know that more than a few of us will be wanting to see the pics Happy

Cheers all,

David

Alina Boyden · Posted: Sun 26 Sep, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject:

Incidentally, I did my own scalar measurements and they turned out alot smaller - about 51 inches overall. Is your arm really really long? I used my 5'9" tall younger brother for scale instead of my own arm.

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Sun 26 Sep, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject:

Just jumping in here as I am French Canadian and the name Faussar sounded familiar but slightly off: Looking through my collection of books I found a reference to FAUCHARD and "Faux de Guerre" which translated to WAR-SCYTHE.

From: ARMES et ARMURES de Charlemagne à Louis XIV, par Paul Martin Conservateur du Musée historique de Strasbourg,
1967 Office du Livre, Fribourg

Page 235:" Une autre arme, le "fauchard., s'inspirant des principes de construction et de maniement de la faux de guerre, allait en adopter les avantages et en supprimer les inconvénients. La solidité et la trempe de la lame, déjà, la rendait plus appropriée à la guerre. Mais la forme surtout du tranchant sera déterminante pour son usage. Au lieu d'avoir, comme la faux ordinaire, une courbe concave, en avant, le tranchant prend une forme convexe et fuyante vers le dos de la lame.
Cette disposition permettait d'utiliser le fauchard tant pou l'estoc que pour la taille."

The point of the above is that the FAUCHARD is based on the WAR-SCYTHE (Which is an agricultural implement modified and made stouter for use in war.) The FAUCHARD is an improvement on the WAR-SCYTHE by reversing the curve giving it a convex instead of a concave sharpened edge: Making it more suitable than the WAR-SCYTHE as being effective as well in "Estoc" (Thrust) as well as in slashing.

Elling Polden · Posted: Mon 27 Sep, 2004 1:46 am Post subject:

Norwegain medevial literature refers to a weapon called a "langhorvsljå", or longhafted schyte. It would probably be longer and more glaive-like than the fauchard, and was especialy recomended for naval combat. (of which the norwegians did a lot.)

Yours
Elling