[Lawrence Moran]

I have been lurking here for a week now. I was interested in getting a few new swords and so started looking around on line and found this site. Thanks to you guys here, I was quickly disabused of the notion that I knew a little about swords and armor. It turns out that I am woefully ignorant. In fact, most of what I "knew" was wrong and the rest was just plain nonsense. So...thanks for that. Better ignorance exposed than allowed to fester and grow.

Still, I am looking for a few new swords...At least know I have a better idea of what sort of questions to ask, not to mention a valuable source of information here in the features and reviews sections. Specifically, I am looking forward to a time when I am retired from the Army and able to indulge myself with the LH and Re-enactment scene. I figure if I start collecting some kit now I can sneak the worst of the expenses past the wife a bit at a time and then convince her to look the other way at my "peculiar" hobby by telling her I might as well put all these things to good use.

I am, at the moment, most interested in the Norman era...the period between 1000 AD and 1200 AD. My interests also extend back a little...as far as the 600's. That is a lot of time to cover, I know. I am interested in using this kit to do Living History and Re-enactments, as I mentioned. I would also like to be able to use it for full contact sparring and drills (I plan to get a blunted sword for these drills.)

With all these things in mind, does anyone have some suggestions for me as to which type of gear would be most appropriate? At this point, I am not buying top of the line premium gear but I do want stuff that is historically accurate to the greatest extent possible. I have found some makers in the Czech Republic (I am stationed in Germany) who are reasonably priced but to be honest, I don't know enough yet to make many informed decisions.

[Brian Robson]

Hi Lawrence,

Can I first ask you live? (i.e. where you will be looking for re-enactment groups/events). If it's the UK, I can probably help ponit you at some manufacturers of arms(rebated for re-enactment) and armour etc. and groups to join.

Thanks,
Brian

[Lawrence Moran]

At the moment I live in Iraq...I am in the Army and deployed. I am stationed in Germany and upon completion here, I hope to be in Alaska. As for where I will live when I am all down playing Soldier, I am not yet sure...A great deal will depend on where the wife likes well enough to settle down. Not really concerned about that though as we are both inclined to travel and are more than happy to travel around the States following the Faire circuit...

In part, this is why I asked about the gear. I want gear that is as close to historical accuracy as I can get (at reasonable costs...) not so much for the sake of a group but because its how I want it. I am in the process of doing some of my own research on the period but as I suspect most members here know, you could spend a life time researching that period and still only scratch the surface. There is no sense in reinventing the wheel when a few questions can help clear things up.

For instance, I have already learned that the swords of that era were primarily cuting blades (thanks to you guys here in the features section) rather than thrusting weapons. SImilarly, plate armor was not really available in that era. Its stuff like that I need to make sure I understand before I buy a bunch of gear unsuited to my needs.

[Roger Hooper]

You should read Patrick Kelly's article over at Albion - http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/norman.htm - Towards the end of it he describes his Norman kit.

[Allen Andrews]

I thought of Patrick Kelly as well, I remember being impressed with his kit at a presentation he made at an area High School. Thread is here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highschool

[Lawrence Moran]

Thanks guys...looking at those links now.

[Hugh Fuller]

Lawrence, my prayers go with you in your deployment, as they go with all who go in harm's way. May you return hale and hearty to enjoy many living history and re-enacting moments.

I am a member of a group in the Mid-Atlantic states called the Longship Company. We keep a 12-oared, 40 foot viking longship down at Solomon's Island, Maryland, and we also have a four man faering boat, a sort of a dinghy with a sail, that we tow around to events. The websites are www.longshipco.org, the new site, and http://www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/, the older site. Longship Company has subsets such as the Anglo-Saxon Camp that do living history outside of the Viking Era. One of our favorites is the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain in the 6th and 7th Centuries CE, although we are currently doing a later period where we are Anglo-Saxons standing off the Danish invaders who are portrayed by one of the Viking re-enactment groups in the area.

We have made most of our own clothing as it is hard to find tunics and pants of the proper wool or linen. Most places make them of cotton, which is not proper. One source of shoes is to buy the center seam moccasin kits from http://www.smoke-fire.com/moccasins-1.asp and assemble them w/o the wool flannel inserts. If you make them a bit large and put a belt leather insole into them, they make great turnshoes, a standard shoe for any time from the fall of the Roman Empire up through the Middle Ages. A nine foot length of appropriate heavy woolen cloth makes a good cloak after you hem the raw edges. If you fold it in half and then pin it at your right shoulder or neck, it falls to about our calf and the double thickness keeps you both warm and dry. Belts are best made with a fairly simple buckle unless you choose to buy a belt or a buckle from a reputable supplier such as http://www.quietpress.com/. But be aware that not all such bucles work for all periods, just as not all cloak pins work for all periods. Raymond has dates for all of his, as does Holger Ratsdorf in Germany at http://www.hr-replikate.de/. But he is best to deal with if you are in Germany as he tells me that he no longer likes to ship to America.

Well, enough for the moment. I need to go.

[Brian Ellis Cassity]

Lawrence, stay safe, brother. I was there for OIF III, 2005, doing convoy escort. It seems like a long time ago already. But I'm 37 and life goes by quickly at this age.

Hugh, I find it fascinating that your group has its own longship. May I ask who built it for you? And do you know of any longships that might be owned by similar groups in, say, California, the nearest coast to me in Arizona?

I remember seeing something a while back on TV about a Viking reenactor who wanted a longship for his group, and I remember thinking, "Yeah, right. Who could possibly afford a longship and who could possibly build the thing?"

[Robin Smith]

Welcome to the 11th Century! The Normans are my primary interest too. So if you are interested in getting together a Norman Kit this is gonna be what you need.

Hard Kit:
1. Mail Hauberk - 11th Century is knee length and elbow length sleeves, 12th is alittle longer with full sleeves, towards the end of the Century with integrated mufflers. At this period they were using alternating row solid/riveted.
2. Mail Coif
3. Mail Chausses - (12th century and later)
4. Norman Nasal Helm - Either spangen or one peice
5. Kite Shield - Edge with rawhide
6. Oakeshott type X or Xa sword. - I have a 1st Gen Albion Hastings and an MRL Classic Medieval type X as my blades
7. Gambeson - These were common by the 12th, but there is still debate as to how common they were in the 11th. Personally I think they probably did have them, since mail needs padding to have its best performance...
8. Spear
9. Seax

Soft Kit
1. Linen Under Tunic - Like the hauberk in 11th century it would be knee, longer in later Centuries
2. Wool Over Tunic - Same cut as under tunic
3. Braes and Chausses - Linen or Wool
4. Ankle Boots or Early Turn Shoes
5. Thin belts - At this time belts were generally quite thin. Very rarely more than 1"

Now remember if authenticity is your main concern, NO COTTON! Cotton may have been used after the Crusades, but its easier and more authentic to use linen and wool.
Drop me a PM if you are interested in seeing my Kit. I just completed the finishing touches to it...

[Hugh Fuller]

I cannot tell you of any longships homeported in California but I can tell you that our ship, the Sae Hrafn was built in the Mojave Desert. Here is the link to the guy who built it: from the new Longship Company site: http://ravenkraft.com/. I would suggest trying the links on the older Longship Company page, but many of them are out of date and no longer work. If you are willing to wade through them, you may find something or you may not. In any case, check out the voyage schedule for the Sae Hrafn on the www.longshipco.org site and see if you can combine a visit to Solomons with another trip East. They do public outiings most all of the months that allow it.

[Patrick Kelly]

Hello Lawrence and congratulations on picking a particularly fine era of interest.

Rob has given you a pretty good outline of the basic equipment. However, you mentioned using this gear for sparring and you'll need to add some additional protection for that. There are forums dedicated to those pursuits and the people participating there can give you help with that. Here's one......................
http://forums.armourarchive.org

One thing to keep in mind is none of the mail currently available commercially will be sufficient if you want to approach any kind of level of authenticity. None of it uses the right kind of ring construction for this period but most of us accept that limitation. Butted mail should be avoided since it's nearly useless as a defensive garment, as well as being the most blatantly inaccurate. It also has the habit of spontaneously disassembling on its own. Riveted mail is now commonly available and is much better in this regard. It will either be made of round rings or flattened rings. Round rings are earlier in period and the flat stuff is more accurate to the 15th century. Mail correct for you period would consist of alternating rows of solid rings and round riveted rings. Mail like this isn't currently available commercially so you can either make your own from scratch or make due with what's available. It depends on how far you want to go. The biggest problem with commercial mail is none of it is tailored like it should be. Mail should be tailored much like a fabric garment but the stuff being sold is primarily a tube with sleeves. consequently, it won't look the way it should nor will it allow you the required freedom of movement while wearing it, without being overly large and thereby increasing the weight to an unneccesary degree. You can spend some time making alterations on your own or make a hauberk from the ground up if you want it to fit correctly.

A decent helmet can be a surprisingly difficult thing to find for this period. Many of them won't be proportioned the way they should be and it will look like you're wearing a steel cone on your head. I purchased my helmet from Get Dressed For Battle. I find the helmet to be quite satisfactory but due to some current issues I can't recommend the company in good conscience. A friend did recently purchase a helmet from them without incident so you can decide for your self. The quality of the pieces I've personally seen has been good in relation to the price.
www.gdfb.co.uk

If price isn't a consideration I'd highly recommend Peter Fuller of Medieval Reproductions. His work is first rate and of very high quality. I have a viking spectacle helm from him and it's an excellent piece.
www.medievalrepro.com

Best Armour is another company with some interesting designs and most of their customers seem to be satisfied with their quality and service.
www.bestarmour.com

Here are some sources for mail and related supplies.
http://finditarmory.com
www.forth-armoury.com
http://theringlord.com
http://sussen.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/index.html
www.wholesalearmor.com
www.historicenterprises.com (also sells some workable early period clothing)

Albion has the best and most correct line-up of swords from this era.
www.albion-swords.com

lesser quality swords that may do can be had from these sources.
www.museumreplicas.com
www.deltin.net

Good luck.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Robin Smith]

[Robin Smith]

One other softkit item I forgot: Winingas. These are legs wraps made of linen, worn in the manner of puttees worn by the doughboys of WWI. These really help the kit looked finished out...

[Lawrence Moran]

Thanks for the input guys.

I think I might be willing to try making a hauberk for myself though I readily confess I have never attempted anything like that. I suspect its a lot of work but likely to be worth it in order to get the sort of gear I want. That brings up the question of rings...I have seen the Ring Lords site mentioned several times and will have to check that out. Does anyone know off hand if patterns or design plans for period correct maile are available? Perhaps I can start some of that while I am here...something to pass the time, Solid rings and riveted rings, huh? I will have to see what I can fid in the way of pictures on line.

Hugh (?), funny you should mention Solomans Island. I am from Calvert Country...Lived for more than 15 years in St Leonard and joined the Army from Lusby. In fact, I worked at Calvert Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant writing reports before I signed up. I have not been home since my mom died New Years of 2006. Coming from a State where the State sport is jousting how could I not end up interested in the entire Re-enactment scene.

The comments on clothing are appreciated. I suspect I could talk the wife into making some of the items for me if I can find the appropriate materials or I may just try to find some of the stuff before I leave Europe.

Is it just me or is the Norman Era really under represented? I am wondering if perhaps the greater "glamor" of plate gear and the whole "Age of Chivalry" makes it more attractive to re-enactors.

[Brian Robson]

I wouldn't hesitate in using GDFB. Stephen usually answers emails if you have any queries about stock etc. and often has stuff not listed on the website. Although it probably helps that I'm in driving distance of him, so can collect.

They also do mixed solid/rivited mail - but only with 6mm id links.. It's a shame they don't do it for the 8mm id links.

I also don't have a problem with using a gambeson/mail as protection against rebated steel weapons for re-enactment combat. The mail - even butted spreads the impact over several links very well, while the gambeson absorbs the spreaded force. Although I guess it depends on the style of combat. I wouldn't recommend if for blows landing with force but it is fine for blows without force or pulled blows (I'm still here with no body/arm damage at all after getting hit for 3-4 hours a week for over 10 years). It's armour - it works. I also know that with a thick enough gambeson and contact in a non-bony location where the mail isn't stretched, full force single-handed blows are painless.

For info, here's a link to a good UK group doing the conquest period - http://www.angevin.org/

Thanks,
Brian

[Robin Smith]

[Brian Ellis Cassity]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Hugh Fuller]

Brian, thank you for putting me onto Historic Enterprises. They had not been doing Migration Era gear until recently and I had stopped bothering with them. Their winingas, what we call wickelbanders in the A-S Camp, appear to be very well-done and quite reasonable. I also liked their tunics at the prices charged, both linen and woolen. I may even order a set of the wickelbanders and one of their Viking Caps.

As for fastenng the wickelbanders, archaeologists keep finding these little half-inch buckles and belt ends around A-S and Norse sites from the late first milennium and there is considerable speculation that they are garters for wickelbanders as well as for women's hose and that the very thin and narrow leather from which most were apparently made keep breaking so that they are always being lost. That is why we find them all around the sites. It is also true that their breaking is also our experience.