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M. Eversberg II
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 Posted: Sat 21 Apr, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Could you define "secondary bevel" to make sure we're on the same page?
M.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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So it's where the wedge of the cutting edge is at an angle to the body of the blade? Sorta like this <_> only not crap.
The pic is a bit ambiguous.
M.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Correct.
| M. Eversberg II wrote: | So it's where the wedge of the cutting edge is at an angle to the body of the blade? Sorta like this <_> only not crap.
The pic is a bit ambiguous.
M. |
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Ah then in that case my Windlass sword has that too. How is it supposed to be on a correct sword? Just taper out to the edge?
M.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| M. Eversberg II wrote: | Ah then in that case my Windlass sword has that too. How is it supposed to be on a correct sword? Just taper out to the edge?
M. |
Hi M
Actually, a secondary bevel is just fine. Swords who's edges just taper out to the edge have to fine an edge generally, unless they're thick in the center for the width........
There are some antique swords with really fine edges, but these kinds of edges tend towards easy damage......
Even the Albions have a secondary bevel, its just done with a lot more care, and with a real effort to blend it in with the main bevels.
The "sharpness" of an edge is two things, one being the included angle of the bevels right at the edge, and the other, how "thick" it is right at the edge. An obtuse angle, for instance, can be razor sharp, sharp enough to take hair off an arm, but if too much of an angle exists there, it might not work that well as a "sword" edge, ie cutting at speed........
How good the edge of your WS sword is, depends on how thick the edge was before sharpening, what the angle of the main bevel is, and what the angle of the edge bevel is.........
swords are fun
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sun 22 Apr, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Surprisingly it has a good edge -- I've abused it by cutting thin pine limbs before and it still holds an edge -- owned it almost a year now and have yet to need a sharpening.
M.
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Nicholas Zeman
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| Posted: Tue 24 Apr, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: |
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I have owned the 15th Century Longsword, it was a nice piece, well made, the cross and siderings were poorly done in my opinion, but it was a Windlass after all. It handled OK, there was a serious lack of dynamic feel probably due to little distal taper and poor mass distribution. I thought it a good sword to own, and most Windlass swords that have passed through my hands have been more than worth the price (although I have to say I would rather own one Atrim or Albion than 2-3 Windlass offerings).
I also briefly owned a Windlass War Sword with a sharpened edge. It was a beveled edge, but all of the Atrims I have owned have also had beveled edges. They all cut just fine and there were no issues at all. If I look closely at my Albion Mercenary, there is certainly a place where I can see the bevel, however in this case it was nicely blended in with the main bevel of the flat. I don't think it's possible to have a completely solid wedge shape on a diamond cross section without some kind of bevel towards the edge (you just can't see it because it becomes more "apple-seed" like towards the cutting surface). As Angus Trim remarked earlier in the thread, beveled edges seem to be pretty common in all swords, but sometimes this feature is blended in with the main flat and it looks like a continuous surface.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 26 Apr, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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How were the cross and side rings poorly done on your sword?
Mine are adequately executed (which was a pleasant surprise).
What do you mean by "dynamic feel"? A bit of term checking here, and some Googling, gave me no standard definition in any context. Seems to be of flexible meaning in most industries (marketing term?). Its easy enough to make an assumption, but that does not mean the assumption is right.
Regarding the mass distribution on this Windlass sword (15th Cent.) being poor in your experience, could you please provide a bit more detail? I'm able to work this sword effortlessly through guard transitions, and for me it cuts efficiently (given its blunt). I generally cannot cut for crap with a sword that is poorly balanced. Perhaps I got lucky and got a good one. I bought from KoA hoping I would since they supposedly recieve and do their own QC instead of just drop shipping product out.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 26 Apr, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think I understand Nicholas' meaning. When comparing the sword to Albion and Tinker's, as mentioned in my review, the windlass sword is slower to get into action, and slower to change direction. That was due to the less-sophisticated distal taper model, resulted in a less-performing mass distribution. One thing you may test with your sword is to flex your windlass sword with light force and see where it starts to bend, or you may say, where the curvature begins. From my observation, both Albion brescia spadona and Tinker's "no dust" started to bend below the forte area. The windlass sword bends right out from the guard. That means when it wobbles around in a quick directional change , it wobbles the whole blade. That will cause a lot of inertia due to the whole blade mass was against your will to change direction. You may try to swing the blade flat wise in small but rapid left-and-right motion and you'll see the blade starts to carry the former momentum and causes the tip to go farther than you aim it to. The same test with the spadona and the tinker would bring the tip to an instant reaction once I apply force on the change.
But then one isn't supposed to expect a Honda running circle around Lamborghini hehhee.
| Joe Fults wrote: | How were the cross and side rings poorly done on your sword?
Mine are adequately executed (which was a pleasant surprise).
What do you mean by "dynamic feel"? A bit of term checking here, and some Googling, gave me no standard definition in any context. Seems to be of flexible meaning in most industries (marketing term?). Its easy enough to make an assumption, but that does not mean the assumption is right.
Regarding the mass distribution on this Windlass sword (15th Cent.) being poor in your experience, could you please provide a bit more detail? I'm able to work this sword effortlessly through guard transitions, and for me it cuts efficiently (given its blunt). I generally cannot cut for crap with a sword that is poorly balanced. Perhaps I got lucky and got a good one. I bought from KoA hoping I would since they supposedly recieve and do their own QC instead of just drop shipping product out. |
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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I got to handle this one briefly when Joe came over a while back. It's pretty darn nice for $170. The construction seemed soldi and it handled well, though it's not the daintiest sword around.
MRL's stock edges shouldn't take a lot of work to get sharp. They are more like unsharpened sharps than true blunts. As I noted in my review of the Towton, a Windlass unsharpened edge can handle light targets (like pool noodles) just fine.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | I got to handle this one briefly when Joe came over a while back. It's pretty darn nice for $170. The construction seemed soldi and it handled well, though it's not the daintiest sword around.
MRL's stock edges shouldn't take a lot of work to get sharp. They are more like unsharpened sharps than true blunts. As I noted in my review of the Towton, a Windlass unsharpened edge can handle light targets (like pool noodles) just fine. |
I hand sharpened my MRL ( Windlass ) falcata and my anelace dagger using diamond hone and patience.
Not hard to do if one is used to hand sharpening knives, the only thing is that with the length of the edges of a double edged sword it takes 5 to 10 times more time to do the job it would take with a dagger length blade.
So its just that it takes so much more time that getting it done before shipping is very tempting as long as the people doing the sharpening don't butcher the blade by doing a bad job of it. I actually don't mind giving the edge a final touch up and would be displeased only by a very irregular secondary bevel varying in width and angle and not matching per side.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jun, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I am going over to Kult of Athena today, only 17 miles, I am going to take a look at this sword while I am there.
Looks real nice!
Bob
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Ryan Whittlinger
Industry Professional
Location: Elgin, IL Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jun, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: |
Jean,
I have no idea how MRL does their sharpened edges, or how KoA does them. I don't have a sharpened sword from either vendor, and the unsharpened swords I do have a fairly unsharp. Sorry I can't help with that.
As for measurements...I have not taken any yet and when I get around to it they will get released whenever the review gets released. I'm not wanting to rush it yet, there can always be surprises. If there is something specific you want please PM me and I'll send to you privately. |
Hello all. I will confirm this. We (KOA) do not have in house sharpening. The Windlass swords we offer with sharpening, are sharpened by MRL before being shipped to us. All windlass swords ship un-sharpened from India. The sharpening is done on a grinder and results in the secondary bevel mentioned. To explain the term further, it is like a knife edge more than a proper sword edge. A properly sharpened sword has the edge basically built into the geometry of the blade. It is a smooth transition from the edge to the center. When looking at the flat of the blade you can not see the sharpened edge. A grinder sharpened edge is more of an acute angle, it is not as good for cutting, but can do the trick. In my humble opinion I'd rather have my swords unsharpened than "knife edged", but many people just want an edge, they don't care what type. Keep this in mind, when ordering sharpened Windlass swords from anywhere, I have never heard of any place offering hand sharpening of these swords, and certainly not for $18. This type of sharpening is definitely not for purists. I hope this clears things up a bit.
Ryan Whittlinger
www.KultOfAthena.com
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Ryan Whittlinger
Industry Professional
Location: Elgin, IL Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jun, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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I will conceed that as Angus Trim has mentioned, It is not as cut and dry as bevel = bad. I'm refering more to MRL's machine bevels than to other products. I will say that they can make a good starting point to better sharpening, and it is pretty dependant on the over-all blade shape.
Ryan Whittlinger
www.KultOfAthena.com
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jun, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Ryan;
Welcome to the site and thanks for the details of what to expect if one orders a sharpened version of a MRL sword.
A secondary bevel can give a good sharpened edge if well done and the difference in cutting from a blended edge can be small if theoretically there: The differences are in part aesthetics and in part a better edge.
A very small secondary bevel on an edge that was close to being sharp can be re-worked by hand ( rounded ) to make it into a blended edge but the amount of handwork needed will still take a while to do, but maybe a little less time than if doing from an unsharpened blade.
I guess the thing is how " cleanly done " is the sharpening done by MRL and is it consistently good ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ryan Whittlinger
Industry Professional
Location: Elgin, IL Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jun, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Ryan;
Welcome to the site and thanks for the details of what to expect if one orders a sharpened version of a MRL sword.
A secondary bevel can give a good sharpened edge if well done and the difference in cutting from a blended edge can be small if theoretically there: The differences are in part aesthetics and in part a better edge.
A very small secondary bevel on an edge that was close to being sharp can be re-worked by hand ( rounded ) to make it into a blended edge but the amount of handwork needed will still take a while to do, but maybe a little less time than if doing from an unsharpened blade.
I guess the thing is how " cleanly done " is the sharpening done by MRL and is it consistently good ? |
It seems to be generally consistant. Though I have seen a few exceptions, where it appears they were "training the new guy to use the grinder". 
Ryan Whittlinger
www.KultOfAthena.com
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jun, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Ryan;
There is where your usual inspections before shipping comes in as superior customer service as I'm sure that you would reject a really badly sharpened blade.  
Oh, and I hope you will post replies on a variety of topics that come up and not just on those relating to your business or products as I'm sure you can contribute interesting ideas or opinions on many subjects.
So, not just for your posts on this topic, a big welcome again from me to the site. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: |
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I'll second that welcome!
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 24 Jun, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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I can confirm that the sharpened Windlass swords purchased from Ryan was sharp enough to slice and cut consistently, against the soft and light targets I put them against. Edge retention, is not as good as Atrim and Tinker and Albion's league, though. But it is very functional in my opinion. I kept purchasing from KoA nowadays.
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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This is a standard topic
