| Author |
Message |
Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
|
 Posted: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | Yeah, I know what you mean. I had a hard time getting my card because of the occasional "more then touch" hit. Very unrealistic, but those are the rules in my kingdom. Atlantia, which is Virginia/North Carolina, has the best in my opinion. Some people swear the hit like they are using rattan, lol. I had one marshal flip out on me because I jerked his head back last week at practice. They guy was lunging forward when I hit him. |
I definitely agree with this--that is, a touch should bend a blade--it needs to show that it would have penetrated a good 3-4 fingers. This is one of my big complaints with most people's hand-sniping. The hand and sword-arm are valid targets--but you're just not going to slow anyone down unless the blade goes in or better yet, through. Personally, I would prefer a point d'arret so that the point can catch the glove or sleeve and stick enough to make the blade bend, but I understand the safety concerns.
The other problem is one of people complaining when you hit them hard because they are basically charging at you without closing the line and throwing themselves on your point. While I don't do the SCA, these complaints aren't just limited to that venue. The ironic thing is that the safety equipment tends to make it more likely rather than less, as people who "armor up" for rapier tend to also have "contempt" of the opponent's point.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
|
|
   |
 |
Gary A. Chelette
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | Gary A. Chelette wrote: | Heavy Rapier is different and I never did get my card on that one. But as I see it, it damn hard to call a touch at full speed and often when I did fight other Kingdoms, I was often called on for too much contact. Hey, It's Texas! We do everything Big here.
A light touch to me is not realistic. It can draw blood, yes, but not necessarily kill.
|
Yeah, I know what you mean. I had a hard time getting my card because of the occasional "more then touch" hit. Very unrealistic, but those are the rules in my kingdom. Atlantia, which is Virginia/North Carolina, has the best in my opinion. Some people swear the hit like they are using rattan, lol. I had one marshal flip out on me because I jerked his head back last week at practice. They guy was lunging forward when I hit him. |
That is true with anything. I have been hit with the heavy blades, they leave a good bruse!
I have had women hit me harder than men, as they explain it, "You won't call it unless it's good."
I don't mind getting hit. I know what I'm in for as far as injury. A bruse is nothing, just when the epee snaps into a sharp point, please, someone say something! 
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
|
|
 |
|
Bennison N
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
I ordered Italian Rapier Combat by Ridolfo Capo Ferro, the James Kirby translation, today, along with Leoni's translation of The Art of Dueling by Salvator Fabris and John Michael Greer's translation of Academy of the Sword by Girard Thibault d'Anvers.
These seem to be the most commonly mentioned manuals of the type we have been discussing. Can anyone think of anything else I should buy to get diverse techniques possibly applicable to my 80cm (31.5in) jian?
This is a very short weapon for a rapier technique, I know, but I'll make it work, you wait and see...
And that brings me back to range... Do any of you rapier men find that "closing the gap" (obvious...) and "sticking to the body" (staying inside...) makes your single rapier less effective? I have heard that many rapiers are only sharpened the centre to the tip, which seems to me to be good at a distance, but not so good up close...
I want to point out that I mean when you don't have armour, a dagger, shield or other sword...
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
|
|
|
|
|
Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bennison N wrote: | | I ordered Italian Rapier Combat by Ridolfo Capo Ferro, the James Kirby translation, today, along with Leoni's translation of The Art of Dueling by Salvator Fabris and John Michael Greer's translation of Academy of the Sword by Girard Thibault d'Anvers. |
All good books, you shouldn't be disappointed (although I found the Capoferro translation a little clunky).
| Bennison N wrote: | | These seem to be the most commonly mentioned manuals of the type we have been discussing. Can anyone think of anything else I should buy to get diverse techniques possibly applicable to my 80cm (31.5in) jian? |
You could try earlier stuff, such as Jherek Swanger's (free) translation of Dall'Agocchie's 1572 treatise (just do a search on the translator and author), or the Forgeng translation of Meyer's 1570 treatise and look at the rappier section. Both of these are a little earlier than the "classic" rapier and utilize cuts quite a bit more.
| Bennison N wrote: | | This is a very short weapon for a rapier technique, I know, but I'll make it work, you wait and see... |
The main problem you're going to have if you attempt to apply rapier technique to a Jian without some significant modification in certain areas is the lack of a complex hilt. This is a pretty important part of the weapon as it is almost like having a buckler in the same hand. The earlier stuff won't be as problematic, but there will still be areas where the lack of quillons or a complex hilt will make certain techniques difficult.
| Bennison N wrote: | | And that brings me back to range... Do any of you rapier men find that "closing the gap" (obvious...) and "sticking to the body" (staying inside...) makes your single rapier less effective? I have heard that many rapiers are only sharpened the centre to the tip, which seems to me to be good at a distance, but not so good up close... |
I try to avoid grappling distance (although some authors do give some techniques), as I want to use my sword. Once you close into that distance, you're really not going to be able to use the rapier for much more than striking with the hilt or pommel. If you think about it, cutting with a rapier is really not going to be that effective if you don't do it with the debole, so it shouldn't really change things if the forte is dull.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Steven, could you tell me about your fencing group and location. If possible, I like to try to get around to other groups and fence as many different people as I can. The bigger the pool of people the better. I don't just fence rapier in the SCA I also fence rapier in the MSR, which is local in the NYC/Long Island area. It tends to be a smaller pool of people but I have still been able to find competent fencers there with different styles.
So my questions range from, how big is your pool, where is it located, do you do tournaments within your group, is it open for people to drop in from out of town and do you guys ever get into the NYC area for some fencing? Feel free to add any other info.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
|
|
 |
|
|
Lafayette C Curtis
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bennison N wrote: | If you will allow me to use the example of a Edo period Japanese Warrior-monk, or Sohei, who were very well known for Naginata techniques, a fact that eventually led to their eradication at the hands of Oda Nobunaga, starting in 1571, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, ending in 1603. A Naginata is essentially a halberd, or glaive, depending on the Naginata, as I'm sure you will agree. The Sohei, who were very often defeated or disillusioned Samurai, and very organised professional soldiers, were able to create "sections" in an enemy line with the use of very fast turning, with the blade at alternating heights of leg, torso, head, and back again in random patterns. The opponents would not be willing to step inside the circle this created around the Monks, and would be scattered into smaller groups. The Ashigaru, or infantry, and usually armed with Yari, or spears, would then pick off these smaller groups of enemy with far less trouble. (Meanwhile, the Samurai would be facing off in a series of dismounted one-on-ones against other Samurai, or riding around on horses picking off stragglers and heroes with arrows and swords.)
It is true that they wouldn't have faced a Shield and Sword in combination, shields not having been very popular amongst Japanese fighters, but they would have faced many exponents of the School of "Two Skies", famous for the use of a Wakizashi and Katana at the same time, the Wakizashi being used primarily as a blocking tool. Not similar enough, I know... |
Hmmm...I'm afraid I have to ask where you learned of this, since it doesn't tally well with what little I know of Japanese warfare in the Sengoku era (not Edo, which is after Tokugawa became the sole ruler of the land). Relying on that kind of whirling motion doesn't seem to be a very good idea, since the easiest counter--namely, masses of arrows and arquebus balls--were present in copious numbers on any real Japanese battlefield (instead of the all-sword-and-no-shot depiction we often see in movies). And I don't really think I've ever heard of nito techniques being used on a Japanese battlefield. Yes, the Niten Ichi-ryu is famous for its two-sword techniques, but as far as I'm aware all of the nito katas in that ryu are designed for use against a single adversary. More importantly, Musashi--the founder of the ryu--doesn't seem to have ever used two swords in actual fighting, whether in single combat or in battle. Last but not least, as far as I'm aware the samurai were more likely to have engaged in more massed and disciplined actions rather than solitary heroic duels.
I know this seems like straying way off-topic, but it's not because if you can't give reliable sources for your statements then its applicability to the polearms vs. swords debate would be in serious doubt.
|
|
|
|
|
Gary A. Chelette
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | [More importantly, Musashi--the founder of the ryu--doesn't seem to have ever used two swords in actual fighting, whether in single combat or in battle.
|
From the History of Musashi: | Quote: | | One exception to this rule was a fight in Enmyo, against Miyake Gunbei, in which Musashi first used his two-sword style in a duel. He killed Gunbei, and named the style Enmyo-Ryu, after the duel (Ryu means school, or style). Later he changed the name to Nito Ichi-Ryu (Two Swords integrated as One School), and then again to Niten Ichi-Ryu. Niten means 'two heavens', and is thought to refer to Musashi's most famous combat stance, with two daito raised above his head. It is said that on his death, not one of Musashi's students could master Niten Ichi-Ryu, and the style died with its creator. |
http://www.iyume.com/musashi/musashi.htm
I have studied Japanese art and history for over 35 years and taught Japanese martial arts for over 25 years. Musashi was a favorite of mine.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
|
|
|
|
|
Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | Steven, could you tell me about your fencing group and location. If possible, I like to try to get around to other groups and fence as many different people as I can. The bigger the pool of people the better. I don't just fence rapier in the SCA I also fence rapier in the MSR, which is local in the NYC/Long Island area. It tends to be a smaller pool of people but I have still been able to find competent fencers there with different styles.
So my questions range from, how big is your pool, where is it located, do you do tournaments within your group, is it open for people to drop in from out of town and do you guys ever get into the NYC area for some fencing? Feel free to add any other info. |
Well, there aren't that many of us as we are a core study group rather than a "school" of the sort that accepts students. We occasionally have events with some of the other WMA fencers in the area, but not formal tournaments (although we might do them in the future). We're based in Arlington/Alexandria, VA in the DC area.
I haven't made it to NYC, although there are a few peers I need to go visit soon.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
|
|
|
|
|
Bennison N
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gary A. Chelette wrote: | | Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | [More importantly, Musashi--the founder of the ryu--doesn't seem to have ever used two swords in actual fighting, whether in single combat or in battle.
|
From the History of Musashi: | Quote: | | One exception to this rule was a fight in Enmyo, against Miyake Gunbei, in which Musashi first used his two-sword style in a duel. He killed Gunbei, and named the style Enmyo-Ryu, after the duel (Ryu means school, or style). Later he changed the name to Nito Ichi-Ryu (Two Swords integrated as One School), and then again to Niten Ichi-Ryu. Niten means 'two heavens', and is thought to refer to Musashi's most famous combat stance, with two daito raised above his head. It is said that on his death, not one of Musashi's students could master Niten Ichi-Ryu, and the style died with its creator. |
http://www.iyume.com/musashi/musashi.htm
I have studied Japanese art and history for over 35 years and taught Japanese martial arts for over 25 years. Musashi was a favorite of mine.
|
Musashi is everyone's favourite. I like Jubei and Munenori from the Yagyu as well. Especially Jubei, for his ability to become nearly pure legend.
Read Turnbull, is all I have to say, Lafayette. He does great research. He is, however, a pure historian... Excellent references... Have fun... He did a good Ninja book as well. It would have been great if the pig-headed, proud Samurai worked together always as you described, but unfortunately, certain Samurai sought out other certain Samurai on the battlefield, and a fully-armoured, Daimyo sanctioned duel would erupt. It is purely Bushido. To live it is to really understand it.
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
|
|
|
|
|
|
Raymond Arnold
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have a question about an earlier part of this conversation.
Several people said "range = advantage, except in cramped quarters where it doesn't. What they didn't go into (unless I missed it. I just skimmed the past few pages but admit I didn't read carefully) was why reach doesn't work in close quarters. I have a sort of image in my head of how it'd work, but don't know exactly what the shorter weapon guy would be doing that he/she couldn't do in a field.
|
|
 |
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Raymond Arnold wrote: | I have a question about an earlier part of this conversation.
Several people said "range = advantage, except in cramped quarters where it doesn't. What they didn't go into (unless I missed it. I just skimmed the past few pages but admit I didn't read carefully) was why reach doesn't work in close quarters. I have a sort of image in my head of how it'd work, but don't know exactly what the shorter weapon guy would be doing that he/she couldn't do in a field. |
If there is no room to back up the one with the longer weapon has less control over the engagement range i.e. no room to step back.
If there is no room to move the weapon effectively or too many obstacles to being able to freely swing the weapon it limits options: These could be an 8' spear in a room with a 7' ceiling, narrow corridors, numerous closely placed columns or a heavily wooded area if outdoors, narrow spiral staircase etc ...
Now someone mentioned that in a narrow corridor a long weapon might still be able to trust effectively and there would be no room for the opponents to get around or behind, so the advantage is not always with the shorter weapon in cramped quarters. I could see a narrow corridor giving the longer weapon an advantage but tight turns or short sections of corridors would create points of increased danger.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sean Smith
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Even with a straight and narrow section, the shorter weapon has the advantage. That is because (assuming it is a battle, vs. one on one) even the long weapons tend to get trapped by people behind you who want to get to the front. People end up trying to thrust over their head, with both arms raised. Not very effective, compared to a guy who can get a short sword up inside and turn into a "Sewing machine of death".
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
|
| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Raymond Arnold wrote: | I have a question about an earlier part of this conversation.
Several people said "range = advantage, except in cramped quarters where it doesn't. What they didn't go into (unless I missed it. I just skimmed the past few pages but admit I didn't read carefully) was why reach doesn't work in close quarters. I have a sort of image in my head of how it'd work, but don't know exactly what the shorter weapon guy would be doing that he/she couldn't do in a field. |
I think it will be worthwhile to go back and read my earlier posts where I explain how even in an open field and in single combat a long weapon can be rendered less effective by closing in on it. I provided some fighting videos as an example on the first page.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
|
|
|
|
|
Bennison N
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Mar, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | If possible, I like to try to get around to other groups and fence as many different people as I can. The bigger the pool of people the better... competent fencers (there) with different styles. |
Vassilis,
Do you intend to keep your fencing opponents to Rapier (or Western style) men only? The reason I ask is that I would willing to fence with you, in as realistic an arena as you will allow. I do not have a Rapier, despite trying to have Dr. Jim Hrisoulas at Salamander Armoury custom-make me one many times, but I know for a fact you will find my Jianshu and Japanese sword very challenging indeed. I know enough of Rapier to ensure a very good match.
The variety of technique will certainly help your progression of art very much, just as the contact with your style will help mine. I've actually meant to request this match for some time, but thought the restrictions I have heard surrounding SCA... the no-lower-leg rule, the constantly trying to limit the force of blows, etc., might have hindered you. I will go by any rules you set, with some negotiation of course...
As I understand, you are in the US. I have a great many family members who live there, as my Mother is from Detroit, and I visit often, both Michigan and Florida in particular, but I have a couple of ex-girlfriends in California and Georgia who I also sometimes visit. It would be no trouble to detour a bit for a match with a skilled opponent, mate... None at all.
Please tell me if you are interested in this swapping of ideas. Then I will start to make arrangements to make it happen.
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Mar, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bennison N, I would be delighted to fence with you the next time you are near NYC. The low-leg restrictions only apply to rattan in the SCA. With rapier the whole body is a target. I have plenty of extra rapiers for you to use. I don't have an extra fencing mask for you but I should be able to borrow one for you if I know you are coming in advance. I would love to try my rapier against your Asian styles. We will have just figure out how hard you hit and how much armor I would need, if any. You would not need any armor other then a mask against my rapier because I have good point control.
We can go as realistic as you like. I do experimental fighting every chance I get. A few months ago I was fencing someone and we agreed to simulate a punch with a palm to the mask. The difference is that if we SCA rules we are free to use their fencing sites. If we want to make our own rules we will have to find a separate site to use. It should not be too much trouble.
When do you think you will be in my area?
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
|
|
|
|
|
Bennison N
|
| Posted: Sat 15 Mar, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Vassilis,
I will visit my Grandparents in September, for my Grandad's 81st birthday. He lives near Orlando. I will tell my girlfriend to stay with them, then come up to NYC. I have some old Army buddies who live there in Chinatown, so I can go to see them as well.
I would prefer to use my Jian. I have one for duelling, the edge is not sharp, and the tip is rounder than usual. I will of course allow you to inspect it. It will much shorter than your Rapier. I can control the tip and power very well, it should not be a problem. A lot of my Jianshu is small slices to vital points, so that should not cause a lot of injury with a small amount of protective gear.
I also have a Kendo Men, which is as good protection as a fencing mask, in my opinion. I have a wadded cotton Tang Zhuan, which is like cloth armour. This is how I usually match, although I only use the Men for Kendo usually.
I will advise you closer to the time as to when I will come. This should be an excellent match and learning experience for both of us. I'm wondering how your athletic style of Rapier will match against my semi-acrobatic style of Jianshu... It'll be one to watch.
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Mar, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, indeed it will be a good experience. Hopefully, we will get to meet more then just once when you are in NY. That way we can compare the initial outcome of matching up different weapons for the first time and then also observe the outcome after having had had a day or two to think about it.
September is a good time to come. The weather is warm enough so that we can use the public parks if we need too, but not extremely hot either. I shall look forward to hearing from you.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
|
|
|
|
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Mar, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Bennison/Vassillis:
Interesting discussion and I hope you can both gives us your conclusions about the results of your comparing techniques: Both individual conclusions where you disagree and consensus conclusions where you agree about how techniques compare/work.
If possible making use of video recordings could be nice for us to see but might be useful just to have the feedback of being able to review the action and analyse it in between bouts or after the days activity for all the obvious reasons.
So, have fun and play safe.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Mar, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, with Bennison's permission, I was hoping to take video of the matches. Such opportunities don't come up often and should not be missed. I was planning to try every weapon's form I have with the rapier (single, dagger, case, cloak, buckler, case) and perhaps bring a longsword too. I don't think of it as a competition but more of a learning experience. The two aspects of this experiment are how the weapon's from match up and how the two of us are able to adjust to an unfamiliar style. We'll sitdown after an co-write an analysis.
We will adhere to your wise caution of safety.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kelly Powell
Location: lawrence, kansas Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 123
|
| Posted: Sun 16 Mar, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Way back on this thread people were talking about the wounds found on the bones at visby.....would not a lot of those wounds be incidental other than targeted? you got hundreds of people swinging pole arms and thrusting blindly with spears and swinging god knows what at each other....missed shots have to go somewhere....redirected shots go somewhere....then there are the poor slobs that fall in the line, they are now a target of opportunity, and I can easily see them getting theres legs cut as they try to crawl back through their line.
Another opinion about shields....Us sca people do not use shields nearly as offensively as you would if your life depended on it., especially with bucklers and targets....90% for safety reasons...the other because we do embrace the victorian romantisized chivalry aspect and that would be "poor form old sport",,,,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic