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Jared Smith
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Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Craig,
There is an electronic document that you should be able to find; "Ring Weave, A metallographical analysis of ring mail material at Oldsakasmlingen in Oslo", by Vegard Vike. He did X-ray and etching examination of rings from Viking era (Gjermundbu find) and later through Battle of Visby. He concluded that both riveted and solid rings were common in many of the fragments examined through several centuries, including some bronze ring mail fragment from Visby. The corroded condition did not leave a lot of evidence for discussing peening of the rivet heads and such, but it is a pretty thorough paper that suggests there were plenty of solid rings found in fragments over a period of several centuries beginning with the earlier period of mail. The wire diameter and formed ring was generally not perfect either, suggesting some hand forming (not mass produced drawn wire) of the wire itself.
If you can't find it let me know and PM me. I will forward the copy I have saved.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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M. Eversberg II
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Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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James Barker wrote: | best possible diagram |
So THAT'S how it works. I had it backwards, thinking it drew it in, not let it out. Do any of our more renoun makers sell cote's of maille like that, or is it always a custom project?
Speaking of mass-produced drawn wire, I've always wondered how they produced wire in period. I've been told they passed it through successively smaller holes as ore to draw it out, and I am assuming this has the benefit of "breaking" where there is an impurity (this filtering out further weak points). To do this, though, the iron must be fairly soft...
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Philip C. Ryan
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Ed Toton
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Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I've been wanting to see. I've already thought about adding some diamond-shaped expansion areas around the shoulders or shoulder blades on mine to enhance the range of arm motion, and also taper the sleeves more. It's nice to see a historical context on how some of this might have been achieved before.
-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
My armor photos on facebook
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Felix R.
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Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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And again, you can see, that the distribution of those "idle" links is very important on the final appearance of the maille. Have it arranged, you will find visible gores, have it placed all over the circumference, as for the coif, you will have it nearly invisible. Also for an aventail, some people prefer the insertion of gores after weaving a "cross", what results in an octagonal and "boxy" finish. Or place them all over the piece and have an nice round finish.
In my aventail I did the latter. And by reducing links at the face opening, I now have a standing collar, that stayes in place without the need of stitching to the padding.
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M. Eversberg II
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Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Ed Toton wrote: |
Thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I've been wanting to see. I've already thought about adding some diamond-shaped expansion areas around the shoulders or shoulder blades on mine to enhance the range of arm motion, and also taper the sleeves more. It's nice to see a historical context on how some of this might have been achieved before. |
The gores by the neck seem as if they would accomplish that, too.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Simon Van Der Spoel
Location: Australia Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 22
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Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: Chain Mail Advice |
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Hello again gentlemen, thanks for the replies, very informative, so to put it bluntly, where would a newcomer to the re-enactment scene start? The 1237 Spanish Effigy of Don Bernaldo is my inspiration, so I have a period to try and re-create.
So far I have made:
hand stitched shirta of homespun 100% cotton
hand stitched braes of homespun 100% cotton
Mustard coloured individual hose made of light canvas
dark blue light canvas for a tunic to be made
leather belt cut from cow hide and hand made brass buckles, riveted and peened myself
kite shield (modern construction: 3 pieces of ply soaked and warped then glued together, covered in canvas, bound there by leather rim soaked in water and riveted with copper rivets and peened myself, unfortunately the shape didn't hold as much as I wanted so actual shield isn't curved as much as I wanted, doh!)
hand stitched padded arming cap stuffed with 100% cotton rags, rim lined with doeskin, needs more doeskin to create the ties to keep it on my head. (in the contour line style)
partially complete padded gambeson (in contour line style)
Manning Imperial sword 478
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=52
soft leather dark blue scabbard from manning imperial in simple X style being made at the moment
Riveted Nasal Spangenhelm
So there you have it, thats my re-enactment kit, with months of hand stitching, I'll post photos soon, i just don't have much armour/mail/greaves (like the effigy) as yet, So I'll be working on that, but I didn't want to spend a large chunk on inaccurate mail...
So anymore period relevant suggestions? I didn't realise wedge riveted mail only started in Germany around 1237...thanks for the heads up
Creator of the History Channel Documentary: "Spitfire Guardians"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLyNZgA0_iM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTIFoQ1m2LM
Director: "Mounted Steel" Jousting Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIqrkN29HVQ
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Chris Gilman
Location: California Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 82
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Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I look forward to all this tailored mail!
I have an artical on a 14th C shirt aquired by the Tower, in the 1950's entitled "A hebergeon of Westwale" By William Reid, F.S.A. scot. and E. Martin Burgess, F.S.A.
It is a copy of an artical from the "Antiquaries Journal- London 40 1960 "
It has some wonderful notes on a 14th C shirt in excellent condition with crotch flap.
Chris
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Jonathan Blair
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Posted: Fri 15 Aug, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Chain Mail Advice |
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Simon Van Der Spoel wrote: | Hello again gentlemen, thanks for the replies, very informative, so to put it bluntly, where would a newcomer to the re-enactment scene start? The 1237 Spanish Effigy of Don Bernaldo is my inspiration, so I have a period to try and re-create.
So far I have made:
hand stitched shirta of homespun 100% cotton
hand stitched braes of homespun 100% cotton
Mustard coloured individual hose made of light canvas
dark blue light canvas for a tunic to be made
leather belt cut from cow hide and hand made brass buckles, riveted and peened myself
kite shield (modern construction: 3 pieces of ply soaked and warped then glued together, covered in canvas, bound there by leather rim soaked in water and riveted with copper rivets and peened myself, unfortunately the shape didn't hold as much as I wanted so actual shield isn't curved as much as I wanted, doh!)
hand stitched padded arming cap stuffed with 100% cotton rags, rim lined with doeskin, needs more doeskin to create the ties to keep it on my head. (in the contour line style)
partially complete padded gambeson (in contour line style)
Manning Imperial sword 478
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=52
soft leather dark blue scabbard from manning imperial in simple X style being made at the moment
Riveted Nasal Spangenhelm
So there you have it, thats my re-enactment kit, with months of hand stitching, I'll post photos soon, i just don't have much armour/mail/greaves (like the effigy) as yet, So I'll be working on that, but I didn't want to spend a large chunk on inaccurate mail...
So anymore period relevant suggestions? I didn't realise wedge riveted mail only started in Germany around 1237...thanks for the heads up |
Actually, cotton was not a typical fabric of the 13th century. Or even the 17th century. Only the super wealthy in Europe could afford garments of cotton, as it was imported and very expensive to process. Queen Elizabeth I of England had a cotton shirt given to her, which due to its rarity was put on display, rather than worn by her.
I hate to break this to you, as you have done so much work, but as far as historical accuracy goes, the material is the thing. Your homespun cotton shirt and braies should in period be made of 100% linen, your hose and tunic out of 100% wool, not canvas (which is typically cotton). Your belt should be between 1/2" and 5/8" wide and your gambeson and "arming cap" should be heavy weight linen stuffed with tow or raw cotton with no leather Doeskin/deerskin was reserved for the wealthy as they were the only ones permitted to hunt deer, and leather in general was used for shoes, belts, some pouches, and scabbard covers. Your scabbard should be wood core covvered with either leather or fabric, with a metal chape and, depending on the fashion of the day, a locket. What you have made so far really isnt historically accurate, unfortunately, but it sounds great for a medieval faire or other non-reenactment display.
See my post and the others here for more information: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13931
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Jeff A. Arbogast
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Posted: Thu 23 Oct, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Medieval Reproductions out of Canada makes a wedge-riveted hauberk and a coif to match. They start at $1349.00 Canadian for the hauberk only and go up from there based on chest size. Ouch!
A man's nose is his castle-and his finger is a mighty sword that he may wield UNHINDERED!
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M. Eversberg II
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Posted: Fri 24 Oct, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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But are they tailored with gores?
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Matthew D G
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Posted: Fri 24 Oct, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of tailoring, I just finished making a long sleeved crusader era shirt of mail. All the mail I've made has been by guess work and I just tried the gores and diamonds (before reading through this topic) and it made things fit a lot better. The sleeves are the hardest thing to make, when I first made them they were to tight, i could only move my arms to chest level and only at about 30 degrees from straight lol. After adding some diamonds to the elbows and a gore to the back of the shirt it fit soooo much better.
This thread has helped alot because I've been looking for patterns for chainmail and places to buy riveted rings
Next up for the shirt an integral coif and gauntlets
"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes."
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M. Eversberg II
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Posted: Fri 24 Oct, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Pics or it didn't happen
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Matthew D G
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Posted: Fri 24 Oct, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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If I had a good camera I would post some
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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Posted: Wed 17 Dec, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if this helps, but if you go here: http://www.manningimperial.com/articles.php and follow the relevant file, It may help. All I know is that I'm trying it out haha, poor me, only enough money for fence wire and time to butt it all.
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Elling Polden
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Posted: Wed 17 Dec, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Simon;
The rarity and availability of such tings as cotton and leather would depend on where you where. In the mediteranian area, cotton WAS a availabe, so for an impression of a spanish knight it would not be automatically of.
Also, keep in mind that knights and nobles where often very wealthy. Sure, a Destrier would cost the same as a modern day sports car, but there are plenty of people that own more than one sports car, and wear designer suits that cost more than most peoples entire wardrobe.
As long as the kit is consistent with what you are trying to portray, historical price isn't a problem.
If you are reenacting a knight, you can use hide for triming all you like. Hose made of hide are especially "pimp", and expensive. (but your persona is wealthy.)
At least in norther europe, outer cloting was primarily wool, so you should probably get yourself a woolen tunic and hose, in a light fabric similar to the one used to make suits. Not all wool is thick and heavy!
Cotton outer garments might be in use in the mediteranean area, but research it to be sure. As far as I remeber, crusaders used cotton, at least.
There are some significant differences between Spain and the rest of Europe when it comes to clothing and style, due to their close contact with the moors.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Nathan Gilleland
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Posted: Thu 07 May, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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This topic seems relevant to what I'm looking for, so I thought I would revive it with a related question:
Where would you find and purchase solid rings at a decent price? For a cheap alternative, might a particular size washer work? Links to suppliers would be much appreciated!
Seek Honor before Wealth,
Truth before Honor,
God Before all
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Dan Howard
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Jonathan Blair
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Posted: Fri 08 May, 2009 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Nathan Gilleland wrote: | This topic seems relevant to what I'm looking for, so I thought I would revive it with a related question:
Where would you find and purchase solid rings at a decent price? For a cheap alternative, might a particular size washer work? Links to suppliers would be much appreciated! |
You could try the Ring Lord (www.theringlord.com). He has solid rings, cut rings, coils, wire, tools, etc. for the do-it-yourself armorer. I've never bought from there though, so caveat emptor.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Wynn Green
Location: Australia Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 2
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Posted: Sun 17 May, 2009 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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James Barker wrote: |
Look at these images; the first is an image I took at the Museum of London of a 14th century shirt, the second is a cut out of the neck area and the red highlights the gore and the seam: |
Forgive my impertinence, but I fail to see any gore in there at all???
I'm not discounting that it's done, but it doesn't seem to be present on the neck of that maille.
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