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Sean Flynt
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Posted: Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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A quick search for "Dolch", 1400-1500 at http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/ proves that the behind-the-belt option is historically valid for all classes. There are hundreds of images. These few are from 1420 (through the purse straps) to 1469 (red tunic). The most interesting is ca. 1457 and shows the dagger of a wealthy knight worn behind the knot of a broad belt (buckled and knotted at the center of his back). Note that it's not thrust through the knot, as I first thought. Maybe that solves your problem.
Don't ask me why the figure in the third image below wears his dagger behind a puffer fish
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-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt
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Christopher Gregg
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Posted: Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Behind the belt? |
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I don't think so. This baselard appears to have a belt loop on the back of its sheath, as far as I can tell. It's hanging too straight and securly to be on a simple thong. Also, it appears its sheath is black, and the belt is brown with decorations. Funny how more daggers and knives don't use this relatively simple, yet stable suspension method.
Christopher Gregg
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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Posted: Wed 13 Aug, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Tight fitting sheaths are the key IMO. Knives and Scabbards have some dagger or large knife scabbards made of 2 layers of leather with no wood core. The inner layer is flesh side against the blade and the outer layer is flesh side out. Often the inner layer is held shut by adhesive while the outer layer is stitched. This could result in a tight fit.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Wed 13 Aug, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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I'm posting these pics for Chase S-R who will comment on them more.
The first pic doesn't show any suspension system. It's also partially hidden by a shield.
The second pic shows a dagger in front of a belt, with what might be ends of a thong sticking out from behind it. I'm not sure how it's attached.
The third shows a dagger, hilt-down, suspended by a thong but with the scabbard's tip tucked behind the belt.
The fourth shows a military man with his dagger and purse front and center.
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ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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Posted: Wed 13 Aug, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks,
The last is 1350 from prauge origins in the cistercian monestary in vissi brod
the second to last is 1385 trebon, prauge
the first to are random pics of daggers and belts from 1365
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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D. Austin
Industry Professional
Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 208
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Posted: Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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I must say, this has been a most interesting thread.
Sean has showed us some pictures which clearly show daggers under belts which does seem a sensible place to put them. I was also quite interested in Tod's idea of threading the thongs through holes in the belt. It makes sense and even without historical evidence, I'd be very surprised if this wasn't ever done in the middle ages. This could well be what was happening in those effigies where the dagger just seems to float on the hip, although it may just be a neat way to portray the dagger hanging, similar to the way swords are depicted in line with the leg.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Sean Flynt
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R D Moore
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Posted: Sat 16 Aug, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: |
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There is a reference to the suspension of knives and daggers in "Knives and Scabbards" by Cowgill, Neergaard, and Griffiths. The material is copyrighted and I don't have permission to scan and attach any of it, but on pages 54 and 55 there are some drawings and text which clearly indicate what was normal suspension of the time. The authors indicate that the thong was the most widely used based on the number of archeological finds. They also reference the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries: Falconry for a comparison. Amazon may give you a peek at those two pages on a "look see." I think I'l pull the thong through the scabbard equally to create a smaller loop and knot each at the appropriate point with mine. I couldn't find anything to support this, but if I can think of it maybe our ancestors could as well?
Ron
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Thomas Watt
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Posted: Sun 17 Aug, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Someone earlier referenced the Tres Riche Houres... it is the January page that he meant to reference...
and indeed the "problem" you are experiencing is illustrated clearly there.
Perhaps it wasn't considered a "problem" under those circumstances, in that I note one of the feasters (I can't help but think of Snickers now) is using a seax-like knife, while his dagger remains sheathed.
See attachment.
When I think on this, it occurs to me that hilt-downish certainly brings the dagger's display into prominence. Almost like a gunfighter with his pistol belt on low.
Perhaps there is a message being sent that way?
You have to think of an era in which padded cod-pieces was normal for men - we'd think of it as crude nowadays.
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Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Ed T.
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Posted: Mon 24 Nov, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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From one of the15th century Devonshire Hunting Tapestrys.
Ed Thyberg
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R D Moore
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Posted: Tue 25 Nov, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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The cross on this dagger looks like it may be resting in cutouts in the top of the scabbard, the end facing us head on. If this is true, then a pommel heavy dagger would tend to rest more upright. Can anyone else see this? The shading directly below the oval end of what appears to be a cross is what I'm basing my assumption on.
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Ed T.
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Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
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R D Moore wrote: | The cross on this dagger looks like it may be resting in cutouts in the top of the scabbard, the end facing us head on. If this is true, then a pommel heavy dagger would tend to rest more upright. Can anyone else see this? The shading directly below the oval end of what appears to be a cross is what I'm basing my assumption on. |
I believe there are two knives resting in the sheath. The larger hunting knife, behind, has a lobed handle and the by-knife, in front, has a straight handle with rivets showing.
Ed
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Felix R.
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Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Besides the fact that the attachment to the belt by means of a loop, as seen in other pictures above, is nicely shown, I doubt that there are two knifes. It basically looks like a hunting knife with riveted wood halves to the wde tang and a nail instead of a cross, as we see the the same type of construction in the "Messer" too.
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Ed T.
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Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Felix R. wrote: | Besides the fact that the attachment to the belt by means of a loop, as seen in other pictures above, is nicely shown, I doubt that there are two knifes. It basically looks like a hunting knife with riveted wood halves to the wde tang and a nail instead of a cross, as we see the the same type of construction in the "Messer" too. |
Felix, I posted this picture to show the method of attachment to the belt. As you point out it is very clearly shown. Not so clearly depicted is the knife(s) and scabbard, evidently. I'm sticking to my interperatation which is two knives sheathed together. The smaller knife (front) is resting in its own compartment of the sheath, the opening is below that of the hunting knife and the double sheath is shown by a change in the cross hatch pattern and a tooling line that follows the length of the by-knife's blade.
Ed
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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R D Moore
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Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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All answers that create more questions. Ya gotta love it!
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Eric Spitler
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Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Here are a few examples of how I fit my Windlass 'fighting dirk' to my Revival Clothing pouch and generic ring belt. Both methods seem to hold it quite tightly
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"I never heard a corpse ask how it got so cold."
- Richard, The Lion in Winter
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | R D Moore wrote
The cross on this dagger looks like it may be resting in cutouts in the top of the scabbard, the end facing us head on. If this is true, then a pommel heavy dagger would tend to rest more upright. Can anyone else see this? The shading directly below the oval end of what appears to be a cross is what I'm basing my assumption on.
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Personally I would say that the nail/knuckle stud means that the scabbard is set up in the same way as this dagger here. The scabbard needs to made this way to help with the tipping up problem as then the hanging point is higher and this is a problem with these daggers as the pommel is quite weighty compared to most knives this size and partly I suspect because it looks good.
Quote: | Sean Flynt wrote
One more, of ca. 1517. In this case, there's a hole in the belt and what appears to be a reinforcing grommet. As there are no other holes in the belt, this one may be explicitly intended for the suspension of a dagger/knife. But only one hole.... |
It does look like a hollow rivet through the belt, but I suspect it was a dedicated hanging fitting for purses, knives or whatever. These were around in the 14th through 16thC but are not that often seen and I have shown a pair here. There is a nice one similar to these shown in one of the York finds books. I guess everybody likes a bit of bling whatever age you came from.
Tod
www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
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