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Myles Mulkey




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Myles Mulkey wrote:
Luke Zechman wrote:
This thread is amazing! I have not been able to read all of it yet, and already I am learning so much. Thanks to anyone contributing information, and works in progress. Keep it going!

I agree! I'll keep watching this one. Laughing Out Loud


Perharps it would be more apropriate to move it from makers and Manfacturers forum to the Historical Arms Talk? And, indeed, there is wealth of information in this thread.

I second that!

"There wrought Regin
by the red embers
rune-written iron
rare, enchanted;"
-Tolkien
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Shane Allee




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian the spears look really nice. There are not a lot of people out there doing them right. Know that I have been burnt a few times by people cutting corners or who turned out to not be able to do it correctly.


It did not take long for the whole issue to come up about the mixing of the “Germanic” and “Celtic” culture and objects to come up. There really seems to be some interesting stuff going on between the two. I’ve heard that there was at least one tribe that followed the material culture that is considered Celtic, but was not celtic speaking. Some appear to have been pretty mixed with objects from both cultures in the same context. Want to that someone told me that some genetic research seemed to confirm a mixture. Really should be expected since we see the same kind of thing along the Thracian borders as well.


A couple years ago I was able to get my hands on a copy of a book that covers some of these late La Tene mixed finds. Just wish that I’d had a chance to translate and read more of it. I have been wanting to do one of the single edged swords in there, but not got around to it yet. Glad now since I hadn’t considered that they might not have just supported by the tang. As it is often the case though, any kind of extra metal bits that might have been for support don’t make it into the research drawings and sometimes not even mentioned at all.


Jeroen

I look forward to seeing your La tene with the stacked grip. I really really like the idea of this style of grip just because it is something odd. It is interesting how we see the same concept applied today in grips in plastic toys and things. Sadly I haven’t been able to generate enough interest in anyone to even try and make one of these. I want to say that only one or maybe two appear to have had organics between the plates. A much smaller bronze spacer seems to have been more common. Don’t think that I’d would do leather if I was to do organics though, I’d stick with something like bone or horn that is more solid and won’t compress as much. All dating of these seem to put them in the La Tene III period, even though at first glance that isn’t what I would guess. Naturally with the more shallow bell guard it makes a person think earlier and even the blades to an extent. I do see that they are La Tene III. The bell guard does seem to have a unique curve that we really only seem on these with the stacked grips. The curve is more shallow then we typically see that late, but the center curve is also wider then typical for the La Tene II types. One of these that I got to drawing out really didn’t have all that much room between the top of the bell guard and the first bronze spacer. There is a lot of work in those spacers though. At least sometimes they have a clear taper to them so that they can’t all be the same size. Then you have the small grooves and often times a series of larger grooves cut in the edge. It is really like 20-30 individual seppa for a Japanese sword. It should all make for a really neat sword though.

There are just so many things out there to make and so little time to make them.
Shane
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Petr Florianek




PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dont agree with moving that, it seems more appropriate, i agree, but there are usefull references to recent works, so it wont be possible
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Christian Böhling




PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Shane!

There were much influences of the Celts, in the early times, beginning from 500 BC, there seems to be "tribes" northern of the Mittelgebirge (Middle-Mountains) of Germany, called the "Nienburg-Group" which importated many of their Jewelry and tools as well as weapons directly from the North-Alpes and the eastern regions. We have a very interesting finding-place here, called "Schnippenburg" www.schnippenburg.de, where thousands of such items had been offered to unknown gods. In the same period some groups of further north at the lower Elbe seem to be unaffected by those celtic influences, we call them the "Jastorf-Group". Germanics - or what we try to identify as and seperate from others - developed their influence on the trade by either unknown political connections or just by the pressure of warfare, and slowely they developed something, which seems to be recognizable as a kind of new independance in their choose of forms....

About the dating of those celtic-looking, but germanic interpreted swords: when they are accompanied by shield-bosses and their rivets, they are good to date...and the latest (given into burials at the lower Elbe, hundreds of years after the Jastorf-Culture) are accompanied by so called "timble-head rivets. At least one (Nienbüttel) was accompanied by a fibula of the Sheme Almgren 19 (I have to look, if I false called it Almgren 21 in an earlier post, have to correct it). So it is datable into the Years around 0....

The LaTéne III period seems to have a kind of a fluent passage into the later period, the furhter north we look, the later it seems to end...


I agree to Peter and you imagine antler or bone-parts - but cannot get friend with horn, cannot even explain why...


Here now:

The last in-progress-shots.

The finished weapon with its scabbard. I held it most simple as I could....I just wanted it to carry the most typical designs in a not too high interpreted form. I really hope you all like it! I like it! Hope the guy, I made it for, will like it, too Happy This is the panic, I think all of you know well Wink it hangs beside it´s latest daughters, the sabers, and over night it is going to have sex with the 1796 Light Cavalry to have babys Happy

I use to give each sword a name....will you help me to find a good one?

Let me say thank you to all of you for this impressing discussion that all of your comments and remarkings made so rich!!!! This sword is finished now - the next is beeing started in two or three days (have to relax a bit before).

But we will continue this thread, don´t we??

Cheers

Chris



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Last edited by Christian Böhling on Mon 01 Feb, 2010 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Shane, I was hoping you'd chime in on this, as you know a lot more on la Tene swords then I do Happy

Shane Allee wrote:
Jeroen

I look forward to seeing your La tene with the stacked grip. I really really like the idea of this style of grip just because it is something odd. It is interesting how we see the same concept applied today in grips in plastic toys and things. Sadly I haven’t been able to generate enough interest in anyone to even try and make one of these. I want to say that only one or maybe two appear to have had organics between the plates. A much smaller bronze spacer seems to have been more common. Don’t think that I’d would do leather if I was to do organics though, I’d stick with something like bone or horn that is more solid and won’t compress as much.

I know stacked leather can work as a grip. Peter has discussed some Roman iron age swords that showed that they may have had grips entirely of stacked leather IIRC. But having held some knives with stacked leather grips, I know that this works quite well. Wood, horn and bone can also work, but will be a massive job to make the very thin plates, and also making sure they fit seemlessly between the bronze rings. Leather in that respect is a lot easier. I don't know however how they would finish the edges of the leather smooth with the bronze plates with the tools they had.

Quote:
All dating of these seem to put them in the La Tene III period, even though at first glance that isn’t what I would guess. Naturally with the more shallow bell guard it makes a person think earlier and even the blades to an extent. I do see that they are La Tene III. The bell guard does seem to have a unique curve that we really only seem on these with the stacked grips. The curve is more shallow then we typically see that late, but the center curve is also wider then typical for the La Tene II types. One of these that I got to drawing out really didn’t have all that much room between the top of the bell guard and the first bronze spacer. There is a lot of work in those spacers though. At least sometimes they have a clear taper to them so that they can’t all be the same size. Then you have the small grooves and often times a series of larger grooves cut in the edge. It is really like 20-30 individual seppa for a Japanese sword. It should all make for a really neat sword though.

Yup. If you were to guess, what would in your mind be the most likely shape of the pommel and bolter? Stylized anthropomorphic, with points extending downwards from the bolter and upwards from the pommel? Or doggy bone? Or more basic, with a dome/mushroom shaped pommel? As I haven't got a clue on this one personally Happy

Quote:
There are just so many things out there to make and so little time to make them.
Shane

True, which is probably why always sleep too little Happy

Jeroen Zuiderwijk
- Bronze age living history in the Netherlands
- Barbarian metalworking
- Museum photos
- Zip-file with information about saxes
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

N.b. here's a picture of a whole series of these swords, all found in the river Maas near Kessel in the Netherlands:
http://geschiedenis.vpro.nl/themasites/images...r=18172455

Jeroen Zuiderwijk
- Bronze age living history in the Netherlands
- Barbarian metalworking
- Museum photos
- Zip-file with information about saxes
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Böhling wrote:
I use to give each sword a name....will you help me to find a good one?

Looking at those unfortunate Romans, how about hemicrania, which is latin for half head and from which the word migrain is derived? Sounds appropriate Wink

At any rate that's a very nice sword, and some great craftmanship!

Jeroen Zuiderwijk
- Bronze age living history in the Netherlands
- Barbarian metalworking
- Museum photos
- Zip-file with information about saxes
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Christian Böhling




PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Jeroen!

ok, hemicrania is noticed Happy good suggestion!

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Christian Böhling




PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:


Yup. If you were to guess, what would in your mind be the most likely shape of the pommel and bolter? Stylized anthropomorphic, with points extending downwards from the bolter and upwards from the pommel? Or doggy bone? Or more basic, with a dome/mushroom shaped pommel?


hey, I found a pic of a sword I did ages ago with kind of antropomorphic design... You know what? First day I had it finished, one of the upwards tending arms broke off.... no, if they were made like this, they would have had stabilized it with a brass or iron plate, and we were able to see such a thing on the originals?



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Christian Böhling




PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey you all!

I took the time to study all your homepages and must say:

You are real masters of weaponry! After having recognized to whom I´m talking here, I feel honored!!!

Many many thanks!

Chris

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Feb, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And thanks to you, Chris..Really, it's a real pleasure having a new member come to the site and immediately share such a wealth of information. Very nice.
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Petr Florianek




PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 12:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello gentlemen!
I would like to replikate or craft item inspired by the find, which is now in Schleswik museum. Its not my usual interest period so i am little confused. Could you chime in and advice few things?

1) whats the dating, i assume 2nd century AD, but i dont know
2)what kind of blade? lenticular? diamond? welded edges? san mai? or just wrought? is it possible
3)Does the scabbard match?

thanks in advance!



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Petr Florianek




PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

and here is scabbard, from the same museum in Schleswig. One of those, will it match?


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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 12:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

It's extremely unusual to have a topic in the "Makers" forum hit spotlight status, but so much good info is contained here that it's totally appropriate. It goes far and wide beyond the showing of one's work.

Good job!

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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

It's extremely unusual to have a topic in the "Makers" forum hit spotlight status, but so much good info is contained here that it's totally appropriate. It goes far and wide beyond the showing of one's work.

Good job!


Excellent decision, Nathan! This is extremely useful topic, dealing with the often overlooked time period that contains truly fantastic samples of art.
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Christian Böhling




PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 2:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Petr Florianek wrote:
Hello gentlemen!
I would like to replikate or craft item inspired by the find, which is now in Schleswik museum. Its not my usual interest period so i am little confused. Could you chime in and advice few things?

1) whats the dating, i assume 2nd century AD, but i dont know
2)what kind of blade? lenticular? diamond? welded edges? san mai? or just wrought? is it possible
3)Does the scabbard match?

thanks in advance!



Hi Petr,

thes are pieces from the Thorsberg bog find which C. Engelhardt excavatet in the 19th C.... The Thorsberg bog did not preserve the blades. But: You can have a look at the finds from Vimose to see how the blades typically are made. I would suggest a blade with a diamant cross section, pattern-welded center, welded edges. And the scabbards do fit, as they are of the same dating, the beginning of the third century!

I am shure Peter Johnsson has some good photos of the blades.

As I accidentely have to do the same here, we can start a fruitful exchange..

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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Petr, the blade that could have been mounted with that nice hilt from the Thorsbjerg find is of a type known today as the Vimose-Illerup type (mostly belonging to the first half of the 3rd C AD). They are slim and rather long blades that narrows to a sharp and sturdy point. The cross section is octagonal: two bevels in the middle and the clearly defined edge bevels outside these. The two mid bevels can have panels (or an exposed core of) pattern welded material. Not all are pattern welded, but made from piled steel. The pattern welded ones usually have a core with a wrapped around edge. Some have very advanced patterns with fish net structure. The work you see on these and contemporary blades of different type are among the finest examples of pattern welding in the western tradition. But some are "mono-steel", that is no pattern apart from the strandy structure of the steel.
Jørgen Ilkjaer defines six sub types of this kind of blade, and there is no room to list all the details in defining features of the sub types in a post on a forum like this. Generally some are a bit shorter between 62-70 cm with somewhat less profile taper, or longer (up till just shy of 80 cm) and stronger profile taper, so that the width behind the point is about half the width of the base. The point is short and has the shape of a pointed gothic arch.
At the base these blades typically vary between 3.5 - 4.5 cm. They tend to be thick at the base: some 7-9 mm. All this varies of course and the sub types have clearly defined variation and proportions. Just to give you a basic idea.

I would stay away from a simple diamond cross section on a blade like this (even if some blades of this type do have this cross section). It is actually a rather rare cross section on roman spathae. Octagonal is much more common. The triangular point is also not so prevalent, but rather a gothic arch shape.

I attach some snapshots from the exhibition "The Spoils of Victory" at the National museum in Kopenhagen. You can perhaps get some idea of the proportions of these blades.

The feel of these blades is almost like that of a 17th C cut & thrust sword. Like stout thrusting swords from the 30 years war. They are stiff and very handy. Seems perfect from swift attacks and efficient thrusts. A bit of blade presence because of the thickness of the spine, but not at all overpowering. Rather a feeling of confident readiness. I would say these blades are advanced and at a high point in the craft of the sword. I get a feeling they were made for swordsmen with very specific demands. They are not the easiest thing to make and there are "short cuts" that would save much work and still provide mostly the same function. These are pushing the line for the craft and the function of the sword.

I studied this type when I was designing the "Alaris" for Albion and came to admire these swords. They do not look much like the popular image of the roman spatha, but they are really fine swords that feel very "right" in your hand.

EDIT: looking at the pics I posted I see it is hard to make out the octagonal section. You mostly only see a faint midrib. This is perhaps a reason why so many roman swords are described as having a diamond section? A little rust, and the details are easily lost.
I attach another pic of another type of sword that is broader, but also has this octagonal section. It may be contemporary to the Vimose-Illerup type, or perhaps a little later?

EDIT2:
I attach a concept drawing of the Alaris I designed for Albion. It shows general shape and proportions of these swords. The blade is of the slightly longer and more pointy type.



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P1040139.jpg
Note the sturdy thickness of the tang and blade base.

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P1040186.jpg
One spatha had bronze sheet cover over the organic hilt components and so show what the roman swords looked like, those that inspired local cutlery in barbaricum.

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IMG_3537.jpg
Perhaps the drawing hints at details that are not very clear in the original?

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ng-spatha1.jpg

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Shane Allee




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
Hi Shane, I was hoping you'd chime in on this, as you know a lot more on la Tene swords then I do Happy

Shane Allee wrote:
Jeroen

I look forward to seeing your La tene with the stacked grip. I really really like the idea of this style of grip just because it is something odd. It is interesting how we see the same concept applied today in grips in plastic toys and things. Sadly I haven’t been able to generate enough interest in anyone to even try and make one of these. I want to say that only one or maybe two appear to have had organics between the plates. A much smaller bronze spacer seems to have been more common. Don’t think that I’d would do leather if I was to do organics though, I’d stick with something like bone or horn that is more solid and won’t compress as much.

I know stacked leather can work as a grip. Peter has discussed some Roman iron age swords that showed that they may have had grips entirely of stacked leather IIRC. But having held some knives with stacked leather grips, I know that this works quite well. Wood, horn and bone can also work, but will be a massive job to make the very thin plates, and also making sure they fit seemlessly between the bronze rings. Leather in that respect is a lot easier. I don't know however how they would finish the edges of the leather smooth with the bronze plates with the tools they had.

Quote:
All dating of these seem to put them in the La Tene III period, even though at first glance that isn’t what I would guess. Naturally with the more shallow bell guard it makes a person think earlier and even the blades to an extent. I do see that they are La Tene III. The bell guard does seem to have a unique curve that we really only seem on these with the stacked grips. The curve is more shallow then we typically see that late, but the center curve is also wider then typical for the La Tene II types. One of these that I got to drawing out really didn’t have all that much room between the top of the bell guard and the first bronze spacer. There is a lot of work in those spacers though. At least sometimes they have a clear taper to them so that they can’t all be the same size. Then you have the small grooves and often times a series of larger grooves cut in the edge. It is really like 20-30 individual seppa for a Japanese sword. It should all make for a really neat sword though.

Yup. If you were to guess, what would in your mind be the most likely shape of the pommel and bolter? Stylized anthropomorphic, with points extending downwards from the bolter and upwards from the pommel? Or doggy bone? Or more basic, with a dome/mushroom shaped pommel? As I haven't got a clue on this one personally Happy

Quote:
There are just so many things out there to make and so little time to make them.
Shane

True, which is probably why always sleep too little Happy



The way that I would tackle the bronze spacers would be to stack the plates together and super glue them. This way you can fit to the tang, shape the outside, and file all the grooves as one unit. It would keep everything lined up so that things don't get off as easy. Then you can just heat it up a bit and the super glue will come right apart. If you did the smaller spacers this way out of brone it might be easier than organics.

I have had leather handles before, and like you said they can work, I'm just not conviced that is what they were after with these. I could see a real advantage to having the space between the plates, but it might be a love it or hate it type of grip. Would be very interesting to have one done to see what people thought about it in their hands.

These are a clear series of swords that have very specific features about them. There is at least one other one that I remember that you don't have pictured. I would have to look up the book title, but there is a chapter of the grave it was found in. Clearly a La Tene III date with the scabbard and all. It is the one that I mentioned that only has at most one centimeter between the top of the guard plate and the first bronze grip plate.

As far as the pommel goes, I don't think I have seen any of these with enough organic material to give much clue. At best a person can just go with some of the general trends of others from the period. Tangs seem to be getting shorter and everything a bit more compressed. The later period guys have it easy, they have clear types where as we are stuck trying to relate them to objects and hope others can picture what they are talking about. I think that a short stubby cigar or sausage shape was pretty common. There is not a lot to go on though really. Might have to get back to you on the pommel shapes, might just be easier to draw some stuff out.

As far as support goes for the organics, they are kind of few and far between. Most commonly seen on the guard when it is there though. That might just be in part because the pommel is easier get lost with time, maybe. Some will be between the grip and the guard, extending down over it. There are a few bands here and there that wrap around the guard, Port and Alesia have some of these. They give a pretty good idea about a guard shape, and possible a pommel shape as well. Add an hour glass shaped grip and you start seeing a very common look a few hundred years later. The pommel re-enforcement plates that look like the guard plates are not all that common for the period as a whole. Usually when we see the ogee curved pommel plates it is on La Tene I stuff and more common the further south you go. Also they are rarely seen with both together. Took a bit to figure out what was going on with just the pommel plates and no guard plates, but it is all about the rivets.

Shane
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Shane Allee




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Böhling wrote:


hey, I found a pic of a sword I did ages ago with kind of antropomorphic design... You know what? First day I had it finished, one of the upwards tending arms broke off.... no, if they were made like this, they would have had stabilized it with a brass or iron plate, and we were able to see such a thing on the originals?


That is rough to have one break like that, I have been there before. You are more brave then I would have been going with those small arms like that. One thing about the anthropomorphic style hilts is that you can get away with a shorter grip since the guard and pommel are flaring out. Everyone talks about small viking grips, but most of the ancient period stuff seems pretty small.

Shane
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Myles Mulkey




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Feb, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

It's extremely unusual to have a topic in the "Makers" forum hit spotlight status, but so much good info is contained here that it's totally appropriate. It goes far and wide beyond the showing of one's work.

Good job!

Definitely a good choice! I don't think I've ever loved reading any thread more. Laughing Out Loud

"There wrought Regin
by the red embers
rune-written iron
rare, enchanted;"
-Tolkien
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