Grossemesser VS Kriegsmesser Definition -- myArmoury.com

Thomas Jason

On Swordforum there's a discussion going on over the definition of the Grossemesser vs the Kriegsmesser.

The discussion has touched on products from a number of vendors and the line seems to be rather blurry.

I was wondering if someone here could define the difference between the two.

Patrick Kelly

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

We discussed this on myArmoury.com awhile ago.

The distinction lies within the size and purpose of the weapon being discussed. It gets more confusing when you start adding the falchion and Swiss Saber into the mix as well. Hilt contruction, purpose, and overall proportions/size remain the important issues.

Read what Peter Johnsson has to say in This Post on the issue.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 03 Sep, 2004 1:43 pm Post subject:

This one, posted over at ARMA ( http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/heymr.htm ), is as large a messer-looking weapon as I've seen. Whether it would be called a kreigmesser or not I don't know. It doesn't have a scale grip (though such might be concealed by a leather wrap), and guard and pommel are more of more typical military sword-form. Anyway, the blade size and shape is what I think of when I hear the term.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Sean, that looks like a saber to me. A large one at that. (Grossesabel)

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 03 Sep, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject:

Makes sense. The caption ID's it as either a grossemesser or grossesabel. A good photo of the grip elsewhere on that page pretty much rules out scale construction, so by that criteria alone it wouldn't be a messer. But the blade shape....do you think it would be wider if a kreigmesser, or pretty much the same, but in a messer hilt?

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Hey Sean,

I know this weapon fairly well. It is kept in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm in the cellar stores.

It is not a messer, it is a two handed sabre of 17th C date.

The blade is in 17th C style and by this accord not quite the style of the typical messer blade, but this is a very fine distinction. Basically, something close to this could be mounted as a messer. The hilt is not right of couse, but the blade fitted in a 16th C style messer hilt would not be too strange.
This blade has a swelling at the point on the backside along the backedge. There is a term for this, I just can´t remember right now, but this feature is often found on sabres. That is not a typical messer trait, but could perhaps be found on very late messers?
There are very seldom any firm lines here.
This weapon is not a messer though. That is for sure.

It is a very nice weapon and of unusual type.
It handles incredibly well, and has a stout and dependable feel while being light for its size. Note: it looks bigger than it really is because of the wide angle lense. It has a blade length of 874 mm and a blade width of 37 mm. The weigth is 1560 grams. It is classified as "two-handed cutlass" in the Royal Armouries catalogue and is said to be of Dutch type with a German blade. Inv. No. 5120.

Grosse sabel? I have not hear that as a name per se. Speaking German, you could well call this a big sabre, but to mint a new name as a flirt with the group "messer" is a bit dodgy I think.
Two-handed sabre is a very fitting name. No need to be more imaginative than that.

(Edited for spelling...)

Markus Haider · Posted: Fri 03 Sep, 2004 11:56 pm Post subject:

Allen W · Posted: Sat 04 Sep, 2004 7:16 am Post subject:

Throughout Austria's museums both terms were used for long gripped versions. I believe Durers fechtbuch uses the term messer without any discriptive prefix. He shows only long gripped versions that are only being used with one hand. What modern typology might be I can't say but I believe the terms kriegsmesser, grossmesser, and messer were used interchangably in the time of their manufacture and use. Though as I type this it seems that those swords displayed in museums as kriegsmessers had rounded tips.