Author |
Message |
Adam Bohnstengel
Location: Spring, TX Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
|
Posted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hmmm................I wonder where / how they were attached? Did the chains get in the way at all? Is this something I should add to my mid 14th century kit that I want? Has anyone ever tried to fight with these that wants to share thier experiences? Are there any surviving examples of these chains in a museum or somewhere? Would this have been intended for combat or tournament use, or both? Lots of questions about these.
I can at least guess as to how long they were, that shouldn't be too hard to figure out. Maybe I just need to take a string and see how well it works?
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
|
|
|
|
Sjors B
Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 43
|
Posted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
i'd try with low budget strings first, i can imagine that a chain would get in the way during combat.
As for attacing it, i'd suggest attaching it to you're armor clothing ( i assume a gamberson, with a 14th c kit) the way armor plates are attached to arming doublets in the 15th c.
you might also consider a belt construction coming over your chainmail.
as for length, i'd say an arms length plus a few inches so you still have the ability to overstretch your armor without being blocked by the chain.
i must say i'm intriged by your findings, and if i have some spare time i'll try out some ideas
member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
|
|
|
|
Len Parker
|
Posted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 11:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here's an image with a chain attached to scale http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?s=&...p;p=221687
Adam, that last link of Falkenstein is very interesting. I'm not sure what kind of armour he's wearing under his surcoat. Don't know whether that would be a coat of plates or scale.
|
|
|
|
James Moore
|
Posted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I seem to recall the coat of plates found in Hirschtein Castle, dated to c.1350 has the mounting points for chains on the chest, and at least one intact link.
I sort of recall that the chains are very long links, and quite square sectioned, an d seem to have an attachment bar that links them to the breastplate so they could be detached, and the one for a greathelm would attach via a keyhole-shaped slot and stud, quite similar to that of a modern key-chain lock.
|
|
|
|
Adam Bohnstengel
Location: Spring, TX Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
|
Posted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here are all the pictures I could find of the Hirschtein coat of plates, and a reproduction made from it. I really wish I could find better/bigger pictures of this, especially the reproduction. It's too hard to see how they attach to the chest, or how they are supposed to attach to the weapons. Oh, and none of those chains look long enough to reach the sword, dagger or helm. What's the 4th one for, a mace?
This guy, and the interperative drawing, is Otto von Orlamünde (1340). I think I just may base my kit off of these. Different color though. I'm also wondering if he has elbow cops or rebraces on under that maille since the vambraces are worn underneath. I wonder what he's supposed to be wearing on his legs as well.
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
Posted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In the interest of having all the discussion on one topic in one place, I've merged the thread "What's with the crazy chains?" with this one.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
Adam Bohnstengel
Location: Spring, TX Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
|
Posted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Much appreciated Mr. Arnow! The more I look at that interpreted drawing, the more I like it. I'm definitely going to design my kit around it. I don't guess a surcoat is needed anymore?
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
|
|
|
|
Kel Rekuta
|
Posted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Adam Bohnstengel wrote: | Here are all the pictures I could find of the Hirschtein coat of plates, and a reproduction made from it. I really wish I could find better/bigger pictures of this, especially the reproduction. It's too hard to see how they attach to the chest, or how they are supposed to attach to the weapons. Oh, and none of those chains look long enough to reach the sword, dagger or helm. What's the 4th one for, a mace?
|
That or a hammer, hard to say since it never shows up in the effigies. Its a good question. Could be to a lunch box for all we know. The sword and dagger connections are clear on numerous effigies. The chain on the far left side of the torso attaches the great helm. When not on the head, the helm rests over the left shoulder. For example:
As to the Hirschstein pair of plates... the sword and dagger chains do seem very short to be practicable. That doesn't mean they are though, just that we don't understand their use as well as we might.
|
|
|
|
Randall Moffett
|
Posted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kel,
I;m with a lunch box and maybe a wallet.
If anyone does make one of these post how it works out in combat and travel. I attached two chains temporarily and it lasted all of two months before I found it too much of a hassle.
RPM
|
|
|
|
Brian Robson
|
Posted: Wed 07 Sep, 2011 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
To throw in some more guesses - it looks to me that having the helmet on the back like that may need two chains (one over each shoulder) to stop it bouncing around the side as soon as you move.
Possibly the other two are fixing you to the saddle making it harder to be knocked (backwards) off? Not sure of the pro's/cons of this - maybe one of our resident jousters may have an opinion?
|
|
|
|
Adam Bohnstengel
Location: Spring, TX Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
|
Posted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I found another source, but not much on it yet. From Osprey publishing, "Knight of Outremer AD1187-1344" (?). It has references to another find, and draws this chicken knight based off of it. Still not quite enough detail, and I don't know how good of a source this is. It does show a good, simple way to secure the chains to the chest though.
I'm trying to find more concrete stuff, and my wife is going to get on some German and Slovene forums and ask around there for me. Hopefully we can get this figured out soon.
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
|
|
|
|
Jojo Zerach
|
Posted: Sat 10 Sep, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
These chains were mainly germanic, but they were used in England as well.
His chains seem reasonably long for most fighting styles.
But notice he has two chains going to his left side, and his dagger is on his right. They wouldn't both be for the sword, would they?
|
|
|
|
Adam Bohnstengel
Location: Spring, TX Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
|
Posted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hooray! I finally found some great pictures of how these chains attached, and it makes me feel a little dumb for not realizing it earlier. Heck, I feel dumb for not seeing it earlier! A member here, Nils-Erik Fahlvik, posted a picture and a link in the best thread of them all, the show us your kits and harnesses thread. I don't know how I missed that.
He has three chains on his CoP. In the picture, the left is for the sword, the middle for the dagger, and the right for the helmet. The sword and dagger attach/detach at the CoP, and the helmet attaches/detaches at the helmet. It looks like there is a leather strap around the grips of the sword and dagger that the chain is attached to, and these leather straps are also quickly removeable.
If anyone else has any questions on how the weapon chains work, there are more photos in the links. It even looks like he's fought with them attached, wonder how well that worked. Now I just need to find someone to make me a coat of plates. After I lose about 75 pounds though, school and office work has not been kind to me.
https://picasaweb.google.com/109493801277601815705/1350Tal#
https://picasaweb.google.com/109493801277601815705
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
|
|
|
|
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
|
Posted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I looked at these pictures and did a bit of thinking last year when I was making a repro of these chains.
The length of the chains clearly show that they are for temporary suspension of items whilst not being used, ie helm, sword, dagger etc. They would hamper your free movement if left attached.
I see the fitting at the top of the chain as follows:
A loop through the breast plate and decorative 'washer' that secures the top of the chain assembly.
A long single loop/link that passes through this loop and secures (via a pivot) to a tube.
A rod passes through this tube with a decorative finial fixed so the rod/tube forms a swivel assembly
Chain is fixed to the swivel assembly going down to a T bar.
I see no method of detachment for the chain at the breast plate end.
Adam Bohnstengel wrote Quote: | Hooray! I finally found some great pictures of how these chains attached, and it makes me feel a little dumb for not realizing it earlier. Heck, I feel dumb for not seeing it earlier! A member here, Nils-Erik Fahlvik, posted a picture and a link in the best thread of them all, the show us your kits and harnesses thread. I don't know how I missed that.
|
I have to disagree with this interpretation based onwhat I see in the pictures shown here
I have never examined one of these in the flesh but this is how I see the pictures. I suspect my description is not very clear so I will try to do a sketch and post it up tomorrow.
Tod [/quote]
www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
https://www.facebook.com/TodsWorkshop
www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1
|
|
|
|
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
|
|
|
|
Adam Bohnstengel
Location: Spring, TX Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
|
Posted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Leo, that is a great drawing! Thank you!
In my post, I was only referring to Nils-Erik Fahlvik's interpretation and construction of a CoP with chains; not necessarily the Hirschtein coat. It seemed to me to be a good, viable method, and, if nothing else, that's how the other end of the chain will attach to the weapons. Still a win for me! I want to say again, that sketch of how the Hirschtein coat works is excellent.
So.............you've made a CoP like this with the chains before, have you? Do you have any pictures? Are you willing to do it again? (after I lose some weight!)
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
|
|
|
|
Stephen Burger
Location: United States Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 29
|
Posted: Mon 08 Jun, 2015 4:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry to respond to an old post, but I guess it beats starting another thread to this.
Is anyone out there making these chains and fittings for sale? It's quite hard to google for this, put "chain" and "armor" or "chain" and "14th century" together in the same search, and there is a lot of hits on maile, even if one tries to eliminate that from results. That said, I've tried hard enough that at best this stuff isn't common. Perhaps somebody has sorted this out using easy to find hardware?
Thanks,
Steve
|
|
|
|
Timm Radt
Location: Germany Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 21
|
|
|
|
|