Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Ornamentation: Fantasy vs. History (photo-intensive) Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 
Author Message
J.D. Crawford




PostPosted: Wed 29 Jun, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your point is well made Nathan.

But I guess I'm a party-pooper, because I just don't like extra ornamentation on swords, whether historic or not. I like the dull gleam of steel and the clean geometry that arises from functional design. I'm trying to recall something Oakeshott said in AoW when talking about the transition from bejeweled migration era swords to Ulfberht-style swords. It was something like (regarding the latter) 'surely this is the very essence of beauty, deriving from form and function'. I'm on that team. Must have something to do with my puritanical Scottish pioneer heritage. But each to his own...I guess it would be boring if we all liked the same thing.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Paul Hansen




Usergroups: None

Location: The Netherlands
Likes: 5 pages
Posts: 683
PostPosted: Thu 30 Jun, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
and the (quite false) assumption that historical swords are all fairly clean lines and such where the reality is that there are many swords that are just as gaudy even if those are somewhat impractical for battle.


I think that the equation gaudy = impractical is also largely inaccurate, even though it's still popular with many archaeologists. Of course, some gaudy swords are less likely to have been used then others, but even those smallswords are still very deadly.
View user's profile Send private message
D. S. Smith




Usergroups: None

Location: Central CA
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Sun 02 Oct, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, I can honestly say I wouldn't own a sword in this entire thread. :P I don't think I've ever seen a collection of uglier swords. This is of course only my opinion, and fortunately we don't all think the same way. Variety is the spice of life and those are some pretty spicy blades.

My own opinion is that simple, classy, subtle, understated lines and colors are beautiful. This, to me, is a beautiful weapon:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...cy-xvi.htm

What's more, I think it would be right at home in the "fantasy" setting. I immagine Aragorn (did I spell that correctly for the LoTR fans?) would have been thrilled to use a sword like the Crecy (with a little elven magic of course).

Edited to add: I do understand the point of the thread. I agree that these real-life swords posted here are every bit as "fantastic" as modern fantasy swords. I'm simply saying that I agree with J.D. Craford's tastes in regards to what is attractive in a sword.

Lo, they do call to me.
They bid me take my place among them,
In the halls of Valhalla!
Where the brave may live forever!
View user's profile Send private message
William P




Usergroups: None

Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,148
PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2011 8:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

D. S. Smith wrote:
Wow, I can honestly say I wouldn't own a sword in this entire thread. :P I don't think I've ever seen a collection of uglier swords. This is of course only my opinion, and fortunately we don't all think the same way. Variety is the spice of life and those are some pretty spicy blades.

My own opinion is that simple, classy, subtle, understated lines and colors are beautiful. This, to me, is a beautiful weapon:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...cy-xvi.htm

What's more, I think it would be right at home in the "fantasy" setting. I immagine Aragorn (did I spell that correctly for the LoTR fans?) would have been thrilled to use a sword like the Crecy (with a little elven magic of course).

Edited to add: I do understand the point of the thread. I agree that these real-life swords posted here are every bit as "fantastic" as modern fantasy swords. I'm simply saying that I agree with J.D. Craford's tastes in regards to what is attractive in a sword.


the sword of strider would i think look VERY comfortable in a museum mostly BECAUSE its based off historical blade shapes, the 'scent stopper' pommel and upturned guard and, what LOOKS like a 14th centry sword sort of, i cant identify the exaqct oakeshott type but you get what i mean.

you guys know more than me and i can guess with near certqint that ive missed some glaring detail which makes the sword of strider stand out from historical replicas.
but one thing has struck me about these overornamented historical blades and same for the ones in fantast works, the jewelled ones are always for very rich people.
even in lotr and warhammer and warcraft there is still a MULTITUDE of simpler blades for the common soldier.

simply saying that its a common trend in fantasy thats probably BASED off these historical, highly decorated items, the difference is that the fantasy blades are OFTEN intended to be for combat withn the confines of the fantasy universe. whereas alot of the historical blades are largely ceremonial swords
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Anders Backlund




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Sweden
Posts: 628
PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Found this one while randomly surfing the Albums:



Love that crossguard.

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Your point is well made Nathan.

But I guess I'm a party-pooper, because I just don't like extra ornamentation on swords, whether historic or not. I like the dull gleam of steel and the clean geometry that arises from functional design. I'm trying to recall something Oakeshott said in AoW when talking about the transition from bejeweled migration era swords to Ulfberht-style swords. It was something like (regarding the latter) 'surely this is the very essence of beauty, deriving from form and function'. I'm on that team. Must have something to do with my puritanical Scottish pioneer heritage. But each to his own...I guess it would be boring if we all liked the same thing.


Just for the record, I'm pretty much the other way around: I love a bit of bling in a sword and find it rather boring when they don't go for at least a little bit of unessecary decoration. Maybe it's all the popular culture I've grown up with, your movies and video games and so on, but I like swords that try to be a bit more then just tools for warfare - "deadly treasures", so to speak.

Granted, you can go too far in either direction - some of the more decorated swords in this thread strike me as rather hideous.

D. S. Smith wrote:
Wow, I can honestly say I wouldn't own a sword in this entire thread. :P I don't think I've ever seen a collection of uglier swords. This is of course only my opinion, and fortunately we don't all think the same way. Variety is the spice of life and those are some pretty spicy blades.

My own opinion is that simple, classy, subtle, understated lines and colors are beautiful. This, to me, is a beautiful weapon:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...cy-xvi.htm


By comparisson, I suppose my equivalent Albion sword would be the Count: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...xiiia2.htm

If we look at A&A, my favourite is easily the German Branch Sword: http://www.armor.com/sword078.html

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's an interesting dichotomy among we modern types. Happy It seems very few people want to reenact or recreate low-class personas (who wants to be a peasant?). Most males into this hobby recreate at least a man-at-arms persona, which in period would have required some money to achieve. Many go for knightly personas and even noble ones, which presumes an even higher level of income and status.

But then many folks turn around and often arm themselves with pretty workaday weapons. So many people don't seem to mind the trappings of higher status, with brass-bordered up-to-date armor, and/or surcoats (not everyone had the rights to bear armorial charges), but still prefer weapons that might seem below their status in some cases. In period, if you could have afforded a fashionable harness and all the trappings on your rank, you could afford a little gilding here and there. Happy

There are obviously levels of bling in between many of the examples here and plain, unadorned weapons. But we often see weapons that look plain when compared to the rest of a person's kit.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
J.D. Crawford




PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I see your point Chad, but I also think there's room for different interpretations to suit these different tastes. For example, an upper class knight might have their ornamental sword for court and a plain warsword for the real deal, n'est pas?

I only 'suit up' up one day a year (Halloween) and don't really have a medieval personna, but if I did it would be either a highland/island Scottish nobleman or a knight of the holy orders, both of which would fit with a modest kit all around.

This is not to dispute Nathan's original point - that ornamental does not necessarily equal fantasy - that's pretty clear.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
I see your point Chad, but I also think there's room for different interpretations to suit these different tastes. For example, an upper class knight might have their ornamental sword for court and a plain warsword for the real deal, n'est pas?


Sure, but some like to declare the fancy stuff as being ornamental/for parade, which doesn't mesh with the battle damage seen on some (not all) of these. There were certainly both fancy and plain swords used by the wealthy in battle. In modern kits, though, we seem to see much more of the latter and much less of the former. Some folks go all-out with the fanciness of most of their kit, but choose a plain sword. I'd love to see more people match the sword to bling-level of the rest of the kit.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anders Backlund




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Sweden
Posts: 628
PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hand-and-a-half sword from the Klingbeil Collection:



Okay, that totally looks like a Weta Workshop fantasy movie prop, right there.

Granted, its apparently 19th century pretending to be 16th century, but still.

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
View user's profile Send private message
William P




Usergroups: None

Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,148
PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Backlund wrote:
Hand-and-a-half sword from the Klingbeil Collection:



Okay, that totally looks like a Weta Workshop fantasy movie prop, right there.

Granted, its apparently 19th century pretending to be 16th century, but still.

i forget the oakeshott number, but the albion dane at least represents that oakeshott catagory, and if weta didnt base the sword of the witchking off that type i would be surprised.

and by the way, i realise were talking about WEAPONS mostly but when it comes to grossely over the top gaudy armour and helmets particularly helmets.. the japanese are there to top everyone.
to list some of the more visible examples
honda tadakatsu had antlers,
date masaune, had a very long, off centre metal crescent.
kate kiyomasa had a gigantic eboshi shape on his.
li naomasa had a pair of long horns
another example of later period armour had a pair of cows horns.

there are also endless examples of ones covered with fur, with a bears head shape.

the examples are ENDLESS you look up japanese helmets on google you get countless gaudy examples
and from what i understand they actually rode around the battlefield with these on even the reletively subdued ornaments like those bronze horn like ornaments, are still alot more gaudy than the european helmets (there are exceptions of course.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
William P




Usergroups: None

Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,148
PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.facebook.com/baltimoreknife?sk=pho...mp;theater look at these daggers , the holes in the blades remind me of fantasy and sci fi daggers, BKS didnt say what period there were originals to but they look 16-17th century...
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jojo Zerach




Usergroups: None


Posts: 288
PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Other than surviving examples, I notice a lot of 13th-14th century effigies show swords and scabbards that are much more decorated than modern reproductions.
These are usually done in a style that I find more tasteful than many of the swords in this thread. And considering the date, they were probably combat swords.


View user's profile Send private message
Mohammed Alhassani




Usergroups: None

Location: Arizona
Likes: 1 page
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

some beautiful ottoman Islamic swords


 Attachment: 59.57 KB, Viewed: 2794 times
140113-the-sword-of-conqueror-fatih-sultan-mehmed-in-topkapi-palace-istanbul-turkey.jpg
15th century Kilij of Fatih Sultan Mehmet( Mehmed II the conquerer)

 Attachment: 128.18 KB, Downloaded: 114 times
16th century scimitar made for sultan Suleyman I [ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Ornamentation: Fantasy vs. History (photo-intensive)
Page 6 of 6 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



All contents © Copyright 2003-2013 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum