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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Rondel Dagger - Pictures Needed Reply to topic
 
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Todd Hawkins




PostPosted: Wed 28 Dec, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Rondel Dagger - Pictures Needed         Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm trying to find pictures of Rondel Daggers from the 15th century that have both; a smaller lower (cross) rondel as compared to the larger upper (pommel) rondel, and that also has the rondels made in composite construction (i.e. combined layers of metal, bone, horn, etc.).

Basically, a historical source for the type of handle construction seen in the picture below, and as described in the Rondel Dagger spotlight feature article.

I've had no luck finding any so far, and any pictures from art, museums, books, or any other historical source would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

Todd



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rond.jpg

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Tim Lison




PostPosted: Thu 29 Dec, 2011 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tough find. I looked through all my pictures and only found one that *might* fit the bill. I say might because I really can't tell if the lower rondel is smaller or if it's just the angle of the photo. The rondels look solid too, but in the close up there is a piece chipped out of the middle so I'm assuming that it has an organic disc between two metal plates. Hope this helps even though it's a bit of a longshot...


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Todd Hawkins




PostPosted: Fri 30 Dec, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the picture; that is a very nice piece and is close to what I'm looking for.
The bottom rondel does appear to be composite construction to me as well.

I also have two pictures (which I should have included in my original post) that are close to, but not exactly, what I'm looking for.

The first is from a museum, but I have no additional information on it. It is similar to Tim's picture because the lower rondel appears smaller, but it is hard to be sure. The second picture is by Conrad Laib and dates C.1457. This second picture, ironically, shows exactly what I'm looking for but with larger rondel on the bottom and the smaller rondel as the pommel.

Regards,
Todd



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1457-1457 Conrad Laib, Graz 5.JPG


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Thomas R.




PostPosted: Fri 30 Dec, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Todd,
perhaps are these two rondels useful to you? Picture was taken by me at Rothenburg Reichsstadtmuseum/Germany and is available in higher resolution, if needed.

Thomas



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Todd Hawkins




PostPosted: Fri 30 Dec, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for the picture; is the top one a Landsknecht dagger?


Does anyone know if the description of - metal faced wooden rondels, or rondels of wood covered in iron - is referring to the type of rondels seen in Tim's dagger picture?

These descriptions are used by Capwell and Peterson in their dagger books. I think this might refer to these thick rondels that look to be composite (because of the separation line found between upper and lower disks) but at the same time appear to be completely made out of metal.

Are these wood cores with "metal facing" covering the outside in order to make the dagger lighter?
Or are they made out of just metal; either solid or hollowed?
Or are they actually wood/bone/horn in the middle?

I've attached a picture from the Rondel Spotlight feature article, and the dagger on the bottom also shows this rondel type. Its rondels appear to be "thick/deep" pieces of metal, but also also appear composite because of the thick layered appearance.

Lastly, I would like to update my request for pictures and ask for in addition; any pictures showing "thin" composite rondel construction (regardless of cross or pommel size relation) that are usually found later in the 15th century. I've attached a picture of the only one I have (from Hermann Historica), but I know there are more of this type out there.

Thanks again,
Todd



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Thomas R.




PostPosted: Sat 31 Dec, 2011 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay, Todd, now I got, what you are looking for!

So what about this one, same museum?

Rondell Dagger, Grip bent with silver, the pommel and the round quillon with inscription as following: "ME+FIE+AN+TOI / ESPOIR+EN+DIEU" - "In You I Trust / In God I Believe" (Burgundy/France about 1450).

Regards,
Thomas



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French Rondell Dagger, Reichsstadtmuseum Rothenburg/Germany

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Todd Hawkins




PostPosted: Sat 31 Dec, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Thomas,

Thanks again for the pictures, but I'm looking for examples of ones than have "thinner" composite rondels.
A good example would be like the one found in the painting by Laib, that I posted above.


Thanks,
Todd
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Tim Lison




PostPosted: Sat 31 Dec, 2011 11:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's two of the second type you asked for...


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Todd Hawkins




PostPosted: Sun 01 Jan, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent pictures, thanks Tim.

Do you happen to know what "material" the rondels on the first dagger are made of?

On the second (red handled) dagger; do you know where it's located, and it's date?



Regards,
Todd
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Todd Hawkins




PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm just trying to follow up on a question I asked above. I've restated the question below, and am hoping someone can help me.

"Does anyone know if the description of - metal faced wooden rondels, or rondels of wood covered in iron - is referring to the type of rondels seen in Tim's dagger picture?

These descriptions are used by Capwell and Peterson in their dagger books. I think this might refer to these thick rondels that look to be composite (because of the separation line found between upper and lower disks) but at the same time appear to be completely made out of metal.

Are these wood cores with "metal facing" covering the outside in order to make the dagger lighter?
Or are they made out of just metal; either solid or hollowed?
Or are they actually wood/bone/horn in the middle?

I've attached a picture from the Rondel Spotlight feature article, and the dagger on the bottom also shows this rondel type. Its rondels appear to be "thick/deep" pieces of metal, but also also appear composite because of the thick layered appearance. "



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pic_spot_rondel05.jpg

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Tim Lison




PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry, I must have missed it when you asked the first time. The red handled dagger is in Paris, I believe. The Musee d' Armee if I'm not mistaken. As for the date I don't know. Maybe someone else will know... Here's a full length shot.


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