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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Movies.. Facts or always Fiction. Reply to topic
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alatriste is not much better than the best Hollywood productions as far as the historical details are concerned. The clothing is way too drab for example and you get some truly silly stuff in the battle scene like the charging cavalry firing their pistols in the air rather than at the Spanish infantry. And of course in reality the Spanish infantry did surrender at Rocroi after a long and heroic resistance against overwhelming odds. But for some reason fighting to the death in a last stand is seen as more heroic rather than being granted an honourable surrender on terms by an enemy commander awed by the superb performance of the Spanish troops.

Hwever it has some good scences and unlike a lot of "medieval" movies the clothing and equipment is good enough to suspend disbelief most of the time. While the cavalry scence in the final battle was poor to say the least the infantry fighting was very well done and truly conveyed how a unit of advancing pikemen would look.

"There is nothing more hazardous than to venture a battle. One can lose it
by a thousand unforseen circumstances, even when one has thorougly taken all
precautions that the most perfect military skill allows for."
-Fieldmarshal Lennart Torstensson.
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Y. Perez




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henry V. I think is pretty accurate considering is based on Shakespeare play. I like it better than the 1944 version. However, is not one of my favorites.
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Glennan Carnie




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Y. Perez wrote:
Henry V. I think is pretty accurate considering is based on Shakespeare play. I like it better than the 1944 version. However, is not one of my favorites.


Once again: complete and utter rubbish from a clothing and armour perspective. The Olivier version is actually pretty good - the costumes were based pretty closely on artwork from the period. Although, the less said about the archers and the French charge, the better. I don't remember Agincourt being so hilly (or sunny!), either.

But let's not forget, Shakespeare's play is hardly the last word in historical accuracy.
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Y. Perez




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glennan Carnie wrote:
Y. Perez wrote:
Henry V. I think is pretty accurate considering is based on Shakespeare play. I like it better than the 1944 version. However, is not one of my favorites.


Once again: complete and utter rubbish from a clothing and armour perspective. The Olivier version is actually pretty good - the costumes were based pretty closely on artwork from the period. Although, the less said about the archers and the French charge, the better. I don't remember Agincourt being so hilly (or sunny!), either.

But let's not forget, Shakespeare's play is hardly the last word in historical accuracy.


Yah it was pretty bad in the costume design. Funny cause it won the award in that department. I couldn't deal with the sunny Agincourt battle in Oliver's version so thats why I sided the '89 version. Nonetheless I expected a bit more of both of them.

Indeed, Shakespeare never let historical accuracy be in the middle of good story telling.
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Ian S LaSpina




PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Y. Perez wrote:

Indeed, Shakespeare never let historical accuracy be in the middle of good story telling.


You mean they even did the same thing we're accusing the movie industry of back in the Elizabethan era? ... seems the entertainment industry never changes Happy

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian S LaSpina wrote:
Y. Perez wrote:

Indeed, Shakespeare never let historical accuracy be in the middle of good story telling.


You mean they even did the same thing we're accusing the movie industry of back in the Elizabethan era? ... seems the entertainment industry never changes Happy


I'm pretty sure that when one of Shakepeare's Roman plays, like Julius Caeser was performed back around 1600, the actors wore contemporary Elizabethan dress and fought with rapiers, not gladii.

.
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William P




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

and lets not forget the more recent adaptation of romeo + juliet with leonardo di caprio as romeo,
the scene now set in a modern city, with guns replacing firearms, (notably in the initial fight scene of romeo and juliet when the father says 'give me my longsword' in the movie he reaches for what looks like a shotgun.

there was also a recent adaptation of the play macbeth, set in the scene of an australian criminal underground

xenephons story of the 10,000 was turned into the american movie 'the warriors' being about a bunch of street gang members trying to get to safe territory when their leader is killed and they become targetted by all the other gangs.
and even kurosawas film the seven samurai was adapted to be used as the plot for the pixar movie 'a bugs life' (not to mention the magnificent 7)

also, one thing about accuracy of things in movies and the general look and feel is ironically a self sustaining cycle,
i get the feeling movie makers show people what people already think things should be like,

for example in the realm of sword making, one issue noted over and over with the making of rapiers is that many people expect certain things from swords

its been noted that most people see a balance point that is far from the hilt as 'poorly balanced', regardless of how the sword is meant to be used, rapier repros are often lighter and with a POB further pushed back towards the guard than the originals (the hanwei gustav rapier for example) because as was noted on the myArmoury review of the sword, most people think rapiers (even the earlier varieties) should behave like smallswords or olympic fencing swords with balance points extremely close to the guard, which is contrary to how they ACTUALLY behaved

another misconception is that swords should be quite stiff,

i have a personal example of these 'perceptions' and how one thinks that what is in fact accuratly presented info, is wrong,
for example is the RTS PC game, rome total war (set in the period of the roman republic roughly around the time of ceaser).
one recruitable unit of the greek city states' faction is the famous spartan hoplite, the units costume includes a bronze faced aspis, xiphos, spear, hes wrapped in his cloak (not sure if historical), and wears a conical pilos helmet,
now i think a VERY large number of people playinh thought that the presence of the pilos was flat out wrong, since most people would have seen spartans, like most hoplites, portrayed with mostly attic, thracian or corinthian helmets in either books or films.
and indeed several 'mods' of the unit skin were created to make it look like what people thought was more accurate.
(particularly, a corinthian helm with sideways crest, and not being wrapped in its red cloak

then i learned, to my utter surprise that the spartans indeed used pilos helms pretty much exclusively.

(that said the game is stillvery wrong with many other things, case in point, egyptian soldiers dont look ptolemaic/ macedonian in style, but instead look like new kiingdom era egyptian soldiers
and their elite spear wielding warriors and archers are all seen wearing that famous golden helmet found in the tombs of the sumerians!

although in reality a movie maker should probably do abit of research. so that hes at least close to the time period.
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Ryan S.




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

it is really common for Shakespeare plays to have costumes and props in various settings, some which make more sense than others.

Now it is considered a good thing to be historically accurate, but mostly it applies to costuming, and that usually only applies to more recent settings. Of course really considering movie consultants are the same sort of experts used in deadliest warrior, it is not surprising the lack of historical accuracy.
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Matthew Amt




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
one fairly good series was HBO's rome the scene of the battle of phillipi good although now that i look at it, the costume (aka helmet and armour design) could be better i thnk though.


You're kidding, right? I only made it through 5 episodes, granted, but EVERYthing I saw was abysmal. Not a single decent piece of clothing or equipment. That's no crime, and does NOT mean a show will be bad! Unfortunately, the plot and script were horribly contrived and the acting was lame. The whole world was gray (before the invention of color, perhaps?). Marc Antony was bathing naked outside in a muddy courtyard, instead of in a nice hot marble bath house. Caesar was stocky with thick hair and indecisive. Armor doesn't even slow weapons down. A smear of blue paint reveals that the mysterious ninja thieves of the (unguarded?) sacred legionary eagle are "blue Spaniards"--what?

If you're looking for a GOOD Roman movie, stick with Monty Python's "Life of Brian". Costuming nearly as good, better sets, and they capture the spirit of the era perfectly!

Valete,

Matthew
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Kalle Kylmänen




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Il Mestiere delle armi (2001) is a movie about Giovani de Medici and his part in the Pavia campaign. It's been awhile since i watched it, but I liked the overall feel of the interpretation. It can't remember seeing any other film that showed S-curved crossguards, and I think the clothing part was quite good. But grilling meat on a dagger might not help the heat treating. Some armour and specially helmets were a bit strange if not downright fantasy (the italians' visors), and the shallowly curved german sallets were a bit off I think, and then there were the classic 16th century syle halberds so much assosiated to the swiss guard. Then again, I've looked at historical arms and armour that much that helmets that please my eyes often come with a 350+€ price tag...
I recommend that movie, atleast for the reason that someone more knowledgeable can civilize me about the details of the props Big Grin
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Raman A




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:

also, one thing about accuracy of things in movies and the general look and feel is ironically a self sustaining cycle,
i get the feeling movie makers show people what people already think things should be like,


this is ABSOLUTELY true. Movie makers still use that extremely loud "clop clop clop" sound effect made with coconuts that started in the radio age for a horse's trot, even though that is not what a horse sounds like at all. It was turned into one of the gags in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Or that "shrriiiink" metal on metal sound effect when any sort of weapon is drawn even though it never makes any logical sense what exactly is making that sound. Audiences expect there to be a sound even though there is not one, so the movie-maker has to go back and add it in. The biggest one for me though is the idea that people only started wearing colorful clothing in the 20th century, and EVERY article of clothing before then was brown, beige, or black.

If you do a google search for viking what do you see? Horned helmets EVERYWHERE, because that's what people think of when they think of a viking.

William P wrote:
another misconception is that swords should be quite stiff,


I'm guessing you meant that the misconception is that all swords should be stiff.
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Ryan S.




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

you guys should check out tvtropes.com it talks about the various reasons why movies and such are unrealistic, besides artistic license and lack of research, sometimes the public won't believe reality.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 24 May, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Raman A wrote:
Or that "shrriiiink" metal on metal sound effect when any sort of weapon is drawn even though it never makes any logical sense what exactly is making that sound. Audiences expect there to be a sound even though there is not one, so the movie-maker has to go back and add it in.


Speaking of the shrink sound, when I was acting in Shakespearean plays, one of my directors arranged for metallic edges on the sword frogs so that whenever one was drawn, that sound would occur. He knew that things weren't really that way, but did so because he figured that the audience expected it and thought it was fun.
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William P




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PostPosted: Fri 25 May, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Raman A wrote:
William P wrote:

also, one thing about accuracy of things in movies and the general look and feel is ironically a self sustaining cycle,
i get the feeling movie makers show people what people already think things should be like,


this is ABSOLUTELY true. Movie makers still use that extremely loud "clop clop clop" sound effect made with coconuts that started in the radio age for a horse's trot, even though that is not what a horse sounds like at all. It was turned into one of the gags in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Or that "shrriiiink" metal on metal sound effect when any sort of weapon is drawn even though it never makes any logical sense what exactly is making that sound. Audiences expect there to be a sound even though there is not one, so the movie-maker has to go back and add it in. The biggest one for me though is the idea that people only started wearing colorful clothing in the 20th century, and EVERY article of clothing before then was brown, beige, or black.

If you do a google search for viking what do you see? Horned helmets EVERYWHERE, because that's what people think of when they think of a viking.

William P wrote:
another misconception is that swords should be quite stiff,


I'm guessing you meant that the misconception is that all swords should be stiff.


the horns thing is partly because of various sports teams use images of various warriors as emblems, 2 notable examples are the raiders teams of both NFL and australian rugby.


thats what i said wasnt it?

and i totally forgot about th sword ringing bit
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Gene Green




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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There was a Russian movie "1612", made a few years ago, about Polish invasion of Russia during Time of Troubles. The movie itself is rather silly and the plot is very Hollywoodish, but I thought that arms, armor, and period costumes were some of the most accurate I've ever seen. Granted I am by no means an expert, but I do tend to notice some oddities every now and then. From what I've seen on period illustrations, the Polish nobility, including the winged hussars, the Polish commoner soldiers, the Russian nobility, the Russian commoners, and the Spanish mercenary in Polish service were all wearing "correct" period armor and attire (although I was quietly wondering if the Spaniard would be the only morion-wearing soldier in an army where everyone else wore a hat or a szishack (sp ?).
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