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Tim Rivera
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 Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2012 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | While we're at it, I have two questions about the montante and its techniques in general. The first is about the initial position with the sword resting in a guard. We don't really have any sources with a clear explanation or illustration of what the guards look like, do we? The video interpretations I've seen so far tend to favour lower guards like the tail guard, which (I think) can be rationalised by positing that the weight of the montante at rest would be more easily borne in such low positions, but I can't help wondering if any Iberian texts also describe higher guards (perhaps the equivalents of the Vom Tag and the higher Hengen) that might be worth inserting into our interpretations. |
The montante doesn't really have guards - positions from which the rules are started are described, but that's just a starting point in a cycle of continuous motion. The notable exceptions are the postures in Figueiredo's rule 14 against polearms and thrown weapons (where you wait for the attack), possibly the right angle posture in rule 1 where he explicitly tells you to stop, and the nails-up and nails-down postures from Godinho's rule 1 about montante-on-montante action. The idea is that you are continually in motion and attacking, and the exception is against a single opponent with the same or longer reach, or a thrown weapon.
The montante is a completely different animal from the longsword - like the difference between an elephant and an elephant seal. They weren't used in the same context, so the training is very different, and looking for equivalencies will frustrate you.
Tim |
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Emil Andersson
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2012 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
The second is about the "Fly-swatter." Is it the ascending figure-eight Emil does several times during the large measure/Zufechten segments (is there a Spanish/Portuguese name for it?) in this sparring video? It may be a bit redundant in these bouts but the sequence seems to be a good way to intimidate an opponent into staying outside the reach of the montante while the montante-wielder is thinking up a new plan of attack.
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I got the general idea of that from the 6th simple rule, actually. It mentions a deflecting motion with the false edge of the sword, and the sword then coming about for a stroke. The rule specifies a deflection from the left and then a strike from the right, but I feel it is easier to keep the sword's momentum if you bring it around to strike from the left again.
Anyway, I think it's great that you've been working on some of the rules as well. I'm really itching to get back into it, but our group's been having a lot of trouble with obtaining a place to practice in. I won't be doing much with the rules before we've found a new home, so to speak. On the plus side, I've been strength training regularly and vigorously for the past few months and made it into a routine, so I'll be able to handle the montante and other large swords more easily when I dive back in. 
Tomorrow will be Special; Yesterday was not. |
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Steve Hick
Usergroups: None
Location: United States Posts: 46
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | There were just the two of us this time and neither of us felt confident enough to shoot the interpretation of Rule XII Simple yet, so we settled for the revised version of Rule IV Composed instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSnLedHLBXs
Still awkward (and not yet as fluid as the other version with the extra step), but we hope it looks a little bit closer to the intent of the original texts. We might yet make a third version where all the cuts are descending, which makes the initial movement of the rule more natural--just two big whirls around the head-- but may slightly complicate the recovery to the next segment after the final revez.)
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The way we have taught it is as follows - the initial talho, in the first place is from behind and is a rising blow all the way through the target and ends point directly foreward or slightly up - no step. You can either return it to the chamber or do a small ellipse in the high line and then the next talho is a descending talho - with a step with the right foot, either from from behind or from the end of the small circle, this continues through the target completely to the low line and then circles around from low to high and becomes a descending revez that goes all the way to the low line with a step of the left. We actually turn it back to "from behind" and then raise it from high to low line as if we were going to do another descending talho, but as it reaches above the arm then hold it at that level and begin your turn to the rear by first resetting the right foot in a circular movement to what was your left rear around the pivot of your left foot, turning the head to lead go with the move, as the body completes its turn thrust and step with your left foot in a circular movement around the pivot of your right foot to make a thrust. You then make a circle to your right side low and begin again with the second talho.
There are what you might term postures, and some are described but not named, but the montante more about the movement and not about the holding in place. There likely were named postures, there is some inkling of this in descriptions of the 15th century works in Pacheco.
The interpretation for the thrust and turn is derived from plays of Godinho of the montante. The arming can be done anywhere from the height of the upper arm, just above the elbow to beside the head - this height is given by de Viedma in a somewhat similar play that has no thrust, the point my feint a thrust but turns immediately into a talho by what could be termed a false edge revez to the low line to then begin the high to low talho.
All this latter stuff -- interpretations and other authors plays and the why's and wherefor's of the interpretations if we ever finish the "Full Montante" -- in the works.
Steve
Steve Hick |
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Emil Andersson
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Hick wrote: |
All this latter stuff -- interpretations and other authors plays and the why's and wherefor's of the interpretations if we ever finish the "Full Montante" -- in the works.
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I can't begin to tell you how much I'm looking forward to that one. Please see it through to the end, for the sake of us all.
Tomorrow will be Special; Yesterday was not. |
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Steve Hick
Usergroups: None
Location: United States Posts: 46
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Emil Andersson wrote: | | Steve Hick wrote: |
All this latter stuff -- interpretations and other authors plays and the why's and wherefor's of the interpretations if we ever finish the "Full Montante" -- in the works.
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I can't begin to tell you how much I'm looking forward to that one. Please see it through to the end, for the sake of us all. |
Its not just me who is working this, it is the same unindicted co-conspirators as were involved in the last one or in the presentation on Iberian fencing history at WMAW - Charles Blair, Puck Curtis, Matt Galas, Eric Myers and Tim Rivera in addition to myself. Should likely include a couple of folks from AEEA in Spain too. And likely Tom Leoni for his Monte translation.
Steve
Steve Hick |
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Yesterday at 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Hick wrote: | | The way we have taught it is as follows - the initial talho, in the first place is from behind and is a rising blow all the way through the target and ends point directly foreward or slightly up - no step. You can either return it to the chamber or do a small ellipse in the high line and then the next talho is a descending talho - with a step with the right foot, either from from behind or from the end of the small circle, this continues through the target completely to the low line and then circles around from low to high and becomes a descending revez that goes all the way to the low line with a step of the left. We actually turn it back to "from behind" and then raise it from high to low line as if we were going to do another descending talho, but as it reaches above the arm then hold it at that level and begin your turn to the rear by first resetting the right foot in a circular movement to what was your left rear around the pivot of your left foot, turning the head to lead go with the move, as the body completes its turn thrust and step with your left foot in a circular movement around the pivot of your right foot to make a thrust. You then make a circle to your right side low and begin again with the second talho. |
So, to put it simply, your interpretation does include an extra step with the left foot before the turn and the thrust, but balances it with an additional revez? Quite interesting, and it came up in our discussions too, but none of us tried it and the idea sort of fell by the wayside.
Anyway, the montante bug has bitten for good, and recently one of the montante enthusiasts from my old group began practicing the rules with a 1.6m PVC pipe. Still not ideal, but he said that the pipe has rather more angular momentum than a practice longsword and led him to naturally perform larger, more circular cutting motions (as opposed to the tighter movements and staccato pace of Liechtenauer longsword work) as well as footwork that somehow began to resemble jogo do pau after a while. A round PVC pipe is not much good for practicing edge alignment, of course, but the results he reported makes me wonder if it could be a decent alternative for a beginner who could not afford the expense of an entirely new training sword (but has access to other swords that can be used to practice edge alignment despite being unable to simulate the montante's momentum).
Another subject we've been discussing rather intensively of late is Rule VI, the "battle of the montante." The most straightforward interpretation we could figure out was an upwards sweep with the false edge followed by a direct reversal of the blade's motion to strike down towards the opponent's knee, but this involves stopping the blade in mid-air at the end of the rising cut and the experience with the PVC pipe suggests that this might not be such a bright idea. An alternative we favour at the moment performs the initial "parrying" revez in a somewhat more windshield-wiper like fashion, or (rather more accurately) like the first half of a circular parry in fencing, followed by a slight circle on the right to bring the blade back and "scoop" up the opponent's knee with the false edge. In essence, this forms a very lopsided horizontal figure-eight with the larger lobe on the left and a much smaller lobe on the right, with false-edge cuts going both ways.
That's starting to sound confusing. Maybe I should pester somebody to make and upload a video of it so that I can gather some meaningful feedback here. |
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Yesterday at 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Steve Hick wrote: | | The way we have taught it is as follows - the initial talho, in the first place is from behind and is a rising blow all the way through the target and ends point directly foreward or slightly up - no step. You can either return it to the chamber or do a small ellipse in the high line and then the next talho is a descending talho - with a step with the right foot, either from from behind or from the end of the small circle, this continues through the target completely to the low line and then circles around from low to high and becomes a descending revez that goes all the way to the low line with a step of the left. We actually turn it back to "from behind" and then raise it from high to low line as if we were going to do another descending talho, but as it reaches above the arm then hold it at that level and begin your turn to the rear by first resetting the right foot in a circular movement to what was your left rear around the pivot of your left foot, turning the head to lead go with the move, as the body completes its turn thrust and step with your left foot in a circular movement around the pivot of your right foot to make a thrust. You then make a circle to your right side low and begin again with the second talho. |
Another subject we've been discussing rather intensively of late is Rule VI, the "battle of the montante." The most straightforward interpretation we could figure out was an upwards sweep with the false edge followed by a direct reversal of the blade's motion to strike down towards the opponent's knee, but this involves stopping the blade in mid-air at the end of the rising cut and the experience with the PVC pipe suggests that this might not be such a bright idea. An alternative we favour at the moment performs the initial "parrying" revez in a somewhat more windshield-wiper like fashion, or (rather more accurately) like the first half of a circular parry in fencing, followed by a slight circle on the right to bring the blade back and "scoop" up the opponent's knee with the false edge. In essence, this forms a very lopsided horizontal figure-eight with the larger lobe on the left and a much smaller lobe on the right, with false-edge cuts going both ways.
That's starting to sound confusing. Maybe I should pester somebody to make and upload a video of it so that I can gather some meaningful feedback here. |
Couldn't that ellipse be used to reverse direction in rule 6 as well?
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC |
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Yesterday at 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew P. Adams wrote: | | Couldn't that ellipse be used to reverse direction in rule 6 as well? |
Not in the simplistic interpretation, I think, since the initial revez ends up with the sword high and to the right. If the talho to the knee that follows is interpreted as a descending attack, then why bring the blade round in a circle? Just flip the edges around and sweep it back towards the left.
Of course, the returning talho can be interpreted as an ascending cut instead. If done with the true edge, this leads to Emil's interpretation of a large and near-symmetrical figure eight. If done with the false edge, it becomes my folks' interpretation of a very lopsided figure-eight with the small ellipse at the far right end. Actually it's not a full figure-eight since the most natural motion for the sword brings it back to a stop in the starting position (like a left-side Nebenhut).
One thing I've been mulling about lately is whether the false edge can be used in many instances where Figueyredo doesn't mention which edge to strike with. For example, the altibaxo (not sure what the plural is) in some of the earlier rules are sometimes easier to do with the false edge than with the true, although that may be an artifact from my background in the German system with its profusion of false-edge attacks like the Schielhau and the Sturzhau. |
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