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Peter Törlind
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 Posted: Mon 11 Aug, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: METs mail |
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Is there someone who has some more info about the METs mail from this video (the needelproof one;-)
http://youtu.be/NjKbi7YUNaI?t=3m
It seems like an incredible dense mail!
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The mail from the Met video from 1920 [ Download ]
Last edited by Peter Törlind on Mon 11 Aug, 2014 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 11 Aug, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: METs mail |
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| Peter Törlind wrote: | Is there someone who has some more info about the METs mail from this video (the needelproof one;-)
http://youtu.be/NjKbi7YUNaI?t=3m
It seems like an incredible dense mail! |
I would like to see that as well, the video is seriously bad. There are some detailed examples of similar dense mail from other armors.
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Tue 12 Aug, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Kai Lawson wrote: | Erik--
Do you know if the smaller, tighter weave at the upper end of the bishops mantle above has intentionally exaggerated flattening of the ring near the rivet, or might that be a by-product of using a set of pliers that could be used on larger rings (and smooshing the ring a bit more)? The mesh is so close that the flattened area covers the body of the ring next to it--it looks intentional. Is it? |
Smooshing... Now that's funny. 
Mail such as this was more than likely made for looks as well as protection. The pliers used to set the rivets and give shape to the lapped area were specific to this type of link. Most mail can be woven using two links at a time, but this weave is different in that only one link at a time is added because of its density. Very time consuming. Also, all of the riveted joints point in the same direction.
http://www.erikds.com
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Tue 12 Aug, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Is there any data or theories about the protective qualities of the small-but-not-insanely-small dense rings, compared to the thicker wire rings with larger interior ring space? Was there a weight or flexibility preference, perhaps?
I've heard and read about speculation on protective qualities favoring a range of ring sizes in the middle of the size and wire thickness spectrum, with the finest rings generally being too thin to offer the same protection as rings in the middle; likewise for the spacing gaps in the largest rings (not including some of the very large-ringed flat linked eastern european stuff). Is there any veracity to these ideas?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Tue 12 Aug, 2014 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: METs mail |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Peter Törlind wrote: | Is there someone who has some more info about the METs mail from this video (the needelproof one;-)
http://youtu.be/NjKbi7YUNaI?t=3m
It seems like an incredible dense mail! |
I would like to see that as well, the video is seriously bad. There are some detailed examples of similar dense mail from other armors. |
Bad as in video quality or bad as in overall quality? Because I found this video informative and fun to watch. About the video quality, the video is recording from a video made in the 1920s, what did you expect?
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 1:05 am Post subject: Re: METs mail |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | Eric S wrote: | | Peter Törlind wrote: | Is there someone who has some more info about the METs mail from this video (the needelproof one;-)
http://youtu.be/NjKbi7YUNaI?t=3m
It seems like an incredible dense mail! |
I would like to see that as well, the video is seriously bad. There are some detailed examples of similar dense mail from other armors. |
Bad as in video quality or bad as in overall quality? Because I found this video informative and fun to watch. About the video quality, the video is recording from a video made in the 1920s, what did you expect? |
Sorry Philip, I thought you were referring to this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKbi7YUNaI&feature=youtu.be&t=3m
which for some reason is very blurry on the part about the mail and the needle, your clip is much better (note to Dan Howard, in the future you should use Phillips version as an example).
According to the version that I posted which has audio, the mail used in the needle demonstration was a sleeve and not a full armor.
| Quote: | A Visit to the Armor Galleries
The Metropolitan Museum of Art
In the 1920s the Metropolitan began to explore filmmaking as part of its educational program, and in 1924 it released two films about Arms and Armor. In preparation for this new undertaking, Bashford Dean, the head of the Arms and Armor department, sought the advice of Hollywood professionals D. W. Griffith and John Barrymore. Once the scripts were complete Dean left most of the actual work to his young assistant curators, Stephen V. Grancsay and Thomas T. Hoopes, who also appear in the films. A Visit to the Armor Galleries was especially popular and includes memorable scenes: a Gothic armor steps out of its vitrine to answer visitors' questions about the collection, a seesaw with a small child on one end and a medieval mail shirt on the other demonstrates the relatively modest weight of armor, and a fully armored knight on horseback gallops through Central Park, with Belvedere Castle (the park's weather station) rising picturesquely in the background. When actor Douglas Fairbanks Sr. viewed the film at The Metropolitan Museum of Art, he pronounced it "bully." |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKbi7YUNaI&feature=youtu.be&t=3m
Last edited by Eric S on Sat 16 Aug, 2014 10:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Erik D. Schmid wrote: | That's not really much at all. Several years back they were selling for more than double that. The antique and collectables market has dipped considerably over the years. It's become a buyer's market now, which is nice.  |
Erik, the estimated selling price should have been listed in Euro and not $, my mistake, but that is just an estimated price, the final price could be much higher, here is a link to the auction. http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot.php?ogget...p;lang=eng
They reference another Bishops mantle sold by Christies in 2001 which sold for $87,768 but this is a much finer example.
| Quote: | | European (German) Bishop's Mantle, 16th c, circa 1580, over 100,000 very small riveted steel links with latten borders at the neck and hem, standing collar of semi-rigid mail extended downwards over the points of the shoulders, continued with slightly larger rings, front opening extending to mid-chest level fastened by elaborate silver-gilt 'hook and eye' clasps, cast and chased with scrollwork and conventional foliage and with traces of coloured enamel, 31˝in. (80cm.) |
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Wed 10 Sep, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Here is some absolutely mad stuff that came in with other work (missing rings here and there. Not the first time I'd seen links this fine, but it has been over a decade, and it was Eastern stuff. Yes, those are butted rings holding that denser weave band to the lighter body. It moves like fabric, and is completely noiseless.
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jamesarlen.com
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 10 Sep, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | Here is some absolutely mad stuff that came in with other work (missing rings here and there. Not the first time I'd seen links this fine, but it has been over a decade, and it was Eastern stuff. Yes, those are butted rings holding that denser weave band to the lighter body. It moves like fabric, and is completely noiseless. |
Very interesting, was this a whole armor or just a fragment?
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Wed 10 Sep, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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It's in the form of a 'bishop's mantle'.
jamesarlen.com
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 10 Sep, 2014 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | It's in the form of a 'bishop's mantle'. |
So I will assume that this is wedge riveted and that the denser mail is from the upper area as seen on other bishops mantles, do you have any higher resolution images that you can post a link to like from Photobucket or Flicker etc.
Here is a comparison between your links on the left and standard sized links from riveted mail hauberk sleeve, you can plainly see the much smaller size links on the left.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Great stuff, James. I really have to wonder if these guys didn't keep some sort of magnifying glass over their work.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I am becoming crazy desirous for some well-riveted, smooth flowing fine link mail. Anyone want to make some?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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At arm's length, this stuff almost LOOKS like fabric. The labor involved would be insane. 
jamesarlen.com
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have pictures of the piece from a greater distance? Measurements, and overall weight?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2014 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | At arm's length, this stuff almost LOOKS like fabric. The labor involved would be insane. |
James, here is a little competition on link size, your mail on the top and extremely fine Indian theta link mail on the bottom.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2014 1:47 am Post subject: |
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For our friends outside the United States, The US penny is 3/4" (19.05 mm) in diameter.
I only see one clear join in the butted links, and it appears to have been sawn. It is quite possible that the collar was added in modern times, making this a composite piece.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2014 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Wow! Are there any more pictures of this very fine (in both senses) theta mail?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Eric, I think your penny is smaller than mine by over a quarter of an inch.  That's apparent screen size, at least on my monitor.
jamesarlen.com
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | Eric, I think your penny is smaller than mine by over a quarter of an inch. That's apparent screen size, at least on my monitor. |
James, its a trick penny, specifically meant to make my links look small!! I think the links on your example and this one are about the same size, it amazes me that anyone could do work like this, I was wondering if they might have used children for this really fine work.
| Kai Lawson wrote: | | Wow! Are there any more pictures of this very fine (in both senses) theta mail? |
Here are a few more images, it is from an Indian khula zirah (mail hood / coif), 17th to 18th century, it is the only one that I am aware of that is made with theta links. If you notice, all of the good, detailed images of theta link mail comes from private individuals and not museums, the Royal Armories did a write up on theta links and they have some in their collection and yet they have no good detailed images online for study, same for the other museums that have examples.
Normal sized European mail on the left.
Normal sized European mail on the left.
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This is a