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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hank,

Wurzburg is a fairly nice place, and the Festung Marienburg has a couple of decent swords. I've only been to K-town on accident (don't ask, bad directions that made for a bad day). Not having a car limits my routine travel some.

I've heard of the Book of the Sword, which probably explains why the name seemed familiar, but I've never read it.

Hank, age may have something to do with forgetting stuff, but I am walking proof that simply not remembering is an equally valid problem, regardless age. And I have probably said this to you before (can't remember), but, like Indy said, "it's not the years; it's the miles." Big Grin

Sorry to hear about the teeth. I hope the get better quick. My brother just got braces (at 21), he probably shares some of your pain, since I guess they cranked those things down pretty tight. Oh, and my own mother screws up my name; it's just one of those crosses I have to bear.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company


Last edited by Greyson Brown on Thu 12 Jan, 2006 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hank;

What is the minimal definition for a halberd ??? A fully evolved halberd should be good at thrusting like a spear, chop like an axe and hook or pierce with a back spike. What gets confusing is that other pollarms can do the same but are called by other names.

All the ones that functionally can do all of the above could be all be called halberds but subdivided into classes due to specialized function or design families: The different names more a question of how they look than what they do.

Early halberds should be defined by the first two functions, thrusting and chopping the third of hooking not 100% needed for a pollarm to qualify as a halberd.

But as what Hank said " I know one when I see one " .

The example shown by Craig seems to me at the border line of spear and halberd for me depending on a few things: If small bladed it looks more like a one edged spear, in very large size or with a wider blade I lean towards halberd.

If the blade shape was wider near the socket and transitioned to a narrower point in a more exaggerated way, a sudden stepping down in width: The blade divided more clearly into two distinct shapes and function would be a more evolve type that would clearly be a halberd.

In any case, this may be more like discussing the number of angel that can dance on the tip of a pin.

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Greg Thomas Obach




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

just a thought...

i see that lots of the talk has been about the more standard weapon shapes that the vikings used... .. it maybe possible that this weapon is abit out of the ordinary.... ... just speculating.... that maybe the hero's of these stories may have commisioned more "unique" weapon shape from reg troops...

perhaps..... an axe with a long blade ..... the extends above the pole like a spear........ but has a bit close to the handle... kinda like a sort of customized lochaber axe... ??

anyhow.... excellent topic...


Greg
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thing is, the Atgeir was still in use in the middle ages, and was not that uncommon. So I doubt it would be something very exotic or strange.
One reason noone knows what it looks like could be that it is very hard to distinguish them from regular spearheads.
I can't remeber seeing any helbard-like weapon in the 13th cent material, either. There are some glaives, and plenty of bardiche-style crescent axes (at least in some sources; For instance, Mackieowski (made in france) shows crescent axes, while Edward the Confessor, (made in England) shows more "traditional" broad axes.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Thing is, the Atgeir was still in use in the middle ages, and was not that uncommon.


I had not heard/read that. Can you elaborate a bit? Most of my books tend to deal with England, Franch, Germany, and Italy, with only passing references to Scandinavia, so I'm not really surprised. I am, however, even more intrigued.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most of the sagas where written at this time, anyhow.
It is mentioned in the Kingsmirror as one of the nice things to have when your are fighting on a ship.
Another polearm mentioned is the Langhorvljå, or longhafted scythe. This would probably be a scythe like blade mounted like a spear, similar to the Fauchard.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Most of the sagas where written at this time, anyhow.
It is mentioned in the Kingsmirror as one of the nice things to have when your are fighting on a ship.


I guess that makes sense, but it still strikes me as a bit of an assumption. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to have a little more to corraborate it.

I believe I have some excerpts from the Kingsmirror in a box of stuff that should be on its way from my parents (but with the military postal sevice, you know). Do you knbow if the Kingsmirror says why an Atgeir is nice to have? If it says something like, "It is nice to have an Atgeir whe fighting on a ship becauseyou can do [X] with it," that might give us some more clues to work with.

Thanks again!

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jan, 2006 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll look it up when I get back to the apartment.
There are also saga's that are written within a few years of the actual events; The first parts of King Sverre's Saga was written under his personal supervision, wich might glorify som things, but also guarantee that other things are correct.
there are some bits that that he obviously wanted in there.
Not all of them are glorious, though. Sverre is portrayed as a cunning but not very brave; he is a tactician, not a fighter.
The Saga of Bagler and Birkebeiner (Two rival factions in the last stages of the civil wars of the 12th century) is a lot more "human" in its portail of war,here Sverre's saga is tough guy gritty.
Håkon Håkonson's saga is written in 1263, and features a lot less fighting and a more continental style; the civil wars pretty much ended with Håkon's accention to the throne.
His son, Magnus Lagabøter, also had a saga, but most of it is lost. Wich is a shame, because it was written more or less as events unfolded; the writer had access to the royal archives, amongst other things.

I'll skim through these tonight, and look for references to the weapon...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By chance, my local Hanweii retailer is relocating, and I took advantage of the relocation sale to get myself a Viking Thrusting spear, wich I have temporarily fitted to a 1m shaft that I had lying around.

The result is a weapon that could fit the descrition of the atgeir; it is short enough to be carried in the belt, capable of decent long range swings, and one handed thrusts.
In two hands it can be used for much of the same things as a longsword, when it comes to close combat maneuvers.
Over all, quite handy, but clumsy enough to justify it dying out Wink

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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David Martin




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have also wondered about the Viking Hewing Spear from the sagas I have read. I always assumed it was some kind of hybrid between one of their lugged spears and a glaive. I took some photoshop liberties with the image Craig Johnson posted and came up with this:


 Attachment: 7.4 KB, Viewed: 2579 times
Col60 - Edited.jpg


"When war-gods meet to match their might,
who can tell the bravest born?
Many a hero never made a hole
in another man's breast."

- Sigurd, The Lay of Fafnir
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Hank Reinhardt




PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Viking Halberd         Reply with quote

The glave with the wings is interesting. Elling I'm not sure they died out, but rather changed somewhat. Everyone in Europe was always trying to improve on everything, contrary to the Japanese who found a sword they liked and really never changed it. If you look at Locahaber axes, Berdiches, allplaces where the Vikings were rather active, you find these things. Not to mention the large axes. Its fun to wonder and imagine, you certainly can't get into much of an arguement about it with so little to go on. I will quote a passge from Egil's Saga, but its not here right now, will pick it up this weekend while I'm at Toni's. Will hopefully take a picture and attach it to show my idea of a hewing spear. Its one I made a while back,and really like it.
L:et me quickly explain something so people won't think I'm crazy.
Toni is my wife, we've been married 4 years this Feb. We have to maintain two houses. She lives in Athens, and I live here in Oxford, its about 40 minutes apart. We don't do this out of choice, but she has a severelly retarded daughter who needs constant attention. She also has more books that I have weapons. We simply can't afford to build a house big enough for the two of us. Since Toni also like swords and weapons, I have all sorts of nice things on her walls that are free from bookcases...I do a lot of writing there, but the computer stuff is here. The description from Egil's Saga is interesting, and damn confusing. Will see what you think of it.

Hank Reinhardt
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I will quote a passge from Egil's Saga, but its not here right now, will pick it up this weekend



Hank, if you have internet, you already have the sagas.

The Online Medieval and Classical Library (OMACL) is a great resource , you can take the sagas with you wherever you find a PC. I use it to find all kinds of references that I hear on this forum, when I have no clue what someone is
babbl...er... discussing. I can't always run down to the library, nor can I afford all these books, so I use it a lot.


Allegorical
The Book of the Duchess, Confessio Amantis, The House of Fame, Legend of Good Women,The Parliament of Fowles,

Arthurian
Cliges, Erec et Enide, High History of the Holy Graal, Lancelot or, The Knight of the Cart, Yvain, or The Knight With the Lion,
The Song of Roland, Chronicle and History The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Danish History (Books I-IX), Heimskringla (aka "The Chronicle of the Kings of Norway"), Life of King Alfred

Epic: Biblical
Codex Junius 11

Epic: Classical Greek Mythology
Argonautica, The Fall of Troy, Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns and Homerica, The Testament of Cresseid, Troilus and Criseyde

Epic: Classical Latin
Pharsalia (aka "The Civil War")

Epic: Spanish
The Lay of the Cid, Anonymous (Translation: R. Sheldon Rose & L. Bacon)

Germanic Mythology
Nibelungenlied, The Story of the Volsungs ("Volsungasaga"),

Icelandic Sagas
Heimskringla (aka "The Chronicle of the Kings of Norway"), Laxdaela Saga, The Life and Death of Cormac the Skald ("Kormak's Saga"), The Saga of Grettir the Strong ("Grettir's Saga"), The Story of Burnt Njal ("Njal's Saga"),The Story of Egil Skallagrimsson ("Egil's Saga"), The Story of the Ere-Dwellers ("Eyrbyggja Saga"), The Story of the Heath Slayings ("Heitharviga Saga"), The Story of the Volsungs ("Volsungasaga"), Roland Cycle Orlando Furioso ("Orlando Enraged"), The Song of Roland,

Romance
Cliges, Erec et Enide, Gerusalemme Liberata ("Jerusalem Delivered"), High History of the Holy Graal, Lancelot or, The Knight of the Cart, Nibelungenlied, Anonymous Orlando Furioso ("Orlando Enraged"), Troilus and Criseyde, Yvain, or The Knight With the Lion, Saint's Lives Barlaam and Ioasaph,
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan, 2006 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin;

Just typed in OMACL in Google and it popped out right at the top: Just " Bookmarked " it in my favourites for later use.

Mentioning the above to let people know that it's easy to find just using OMACL.

And thanks for the tip. Cool

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Alex B.




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thought I'd mention this migration era spear recently sold by Hermann Historica. It's pretty much what I've imagined the hewing spear to look like:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm48...at48_1.txt

The one I'm referring to is the one on the right.
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Patrick Fitzmartin




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex B. wrote:
Thought I'd mention this migration era spear recently sold by Hermann Historica. It's pretty much what I've imagined the hewing spear to look like:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm48...at48_1.txt

The one I'm referring to is the one on the right.

Greetings Alex B., Thank you for that photo. The MRL Hero's spear head I own looks very similar to that. Big Grin I was going to reshape it some but I guess I will just mount it now, sharpen it up and ahewing I will go. Wink Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin
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Wolfgang Armbruster




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jan, 2006 2:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Surprinsingly they say that the "hewing spear" (the short broad bladed one) is of Celtic origin.
I've also seen Celtic spears with a "Flamberge" blade.
The design was probably quite popular everywhere in Europe, at least in the Celtic and Germanic regions.
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Kasper Rind




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 4:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Came across this fine looking weapon. Lookes like it might work. but i seem to remember something about the weapon use in the saga had a point or two. not sure!

Kasper Rind



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viking halberd by museum replicas.jpg

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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is the MRL Viking Halberd that more or less inspired this discussion. It's not bad, but it could have been better. Or at least so I think.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Hank Reinhardt




PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: Viking Halberd         Reply with quote

Kaspar, This is the one I designed before I left Museum Replicas. It is based on the comments of a smallaxe shaped like a halberd. I still feel that the "throat" of the axe, that part extending from the socket to the blade, should have been made a little longer. It was designed that way, but not produced that way.
Hank Reinhardt
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Wolfgang Armbruster




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What about this piece here? It's not the right time period, but it's scandinavian after all Wink

SKÄGGYXA, troligen svensk, böjd klinga med ås, på brunmålad stång; korrosion

http://www.auktionsverket.se/R601/stor/5001.jpg
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