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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Messer sought - original and/or repros. Reply to topic
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W. Schütz




PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject: Messer sought - original and/or repros.         Reply with quote

Looking for info and pics of originals of this type of messer and also if its ever been reproduced to a good quality. Messers are a newfound passion - falchions mean germanic brother..


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Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Travis Canaday




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albion will be making them here soon. They'll look something like the drawing the prototype.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...eister.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...photos.htm

and the big one....

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...knecht.htm

I hope this helps...

Travis
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W. Schütz




PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Travis Canaday wrote:
Albion will be making them here soon. They'll look something like the drawing the prototype.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...eister.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...photos.htm

and the big one....

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...knecht.htm

I hope this helps...


Yes ive seen those, but that pricerange is too steep for me for a sidearm. But HELL that one looks good.

Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Jason Elrod




PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:23 am    Post subject: Messers         Reply with quote

Arma Bohemia has one that I'd pic up in an instant if I hadn't promised my wife that I'd pay off all of my custom orders first before I bought anything else.

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/EP29v.jpg

They also have this one:

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/tesak1v.jpg
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tod's Stuff makes messers. I've heard good things about Tod's daggers, enough so that I have 2 on order. Tod's a pleasure to work with.

http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/html/messers.php


Happy

ChadA

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W. Schütz




PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Messers         Reply with quote

Jason Elrod wrote:
Arma Bohemia has one that I'd pic up in an instant if I hadn't promised my wife that I'd pay off all of my custom orders first before I bought anything else.

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/EP29v.jpg

They also have this one:

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/tesak1v.jpg


I actually sent em a mail about the messer just 5min ago. That one looks nice, but its hard to tell from a picture how well its really made.
Ive also really gotten smitten by this sort of hilt; http://www.olofsgillet.org/marsch/images/_MG_1659.jpg - and im trying to locate the original that has this type of hilt.

Tods stuff is great, have two daggers incoming from him. But i think i need a regular sword-smith for this task.

Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Michal Plezia




PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Messers         Reply with quote

Quote:
I actually sent em a mail about the messer just 5min ago. That one looks nice, but its hard to tell from a picture how well its really made.
Ive also really gotten smitten by this sort of hilt; http://www.olofsgillet.org/marsch/images/_MG_1659.jpg - and im trying to locate the original that has this type of hilt.




Hmm I hope it is not too late for my period (1450-70) Blush

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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Messers         Reply with quote

Jason Elrod wrote:
Arma Bohemia has one that I'd pic up in an instant if I hadn't promised my wife that I'd pay off all of my custom orders first before I bought anything else.

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/EP29v.jpg

They also have this one:

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/tesak1v.jpg


I might eventually try out that first one myself.

Its down the list a ways though.

Joe Fults

"INVENIEMUS VIAM AUT FACIEMUS (We will either find a way or make one)" Hannibal

"Our life is what our thoughts make it" Marcus Aurelius
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Messers         Reply with quote

W. Stilleborn wrote:
Jason Elrod wrote:
Arma Bohemia has one that I'd pic up in an instant if I hadn't promised my wife that I'd pay off all of my custom orders first before I bought anything else.

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/EP29v.jpg

They also have this one:

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/tesak1v.jpg


I actually sent em a mail about the messer just 5min ago. That one looks nice, but its hard to tell from a picture how well its really made.
Ive also really gotten smitten by this sort of hilt; http://www.olofsgillet.org/marsch/images/_MG_1659.jpg - and im trying to locate the original that has this type of hilt.

Tods stuff is great, have two daggers incoming from him. But i think i need a regular sword-smith for this task.


What I have from them is solid.

Small sample so far though.

Joe Fults

"INVENIEMUS VIAM AUT FACIEMUS (We will either find a way or make one)" Hannibal

"Our life is what our thoughts make it" Marcus Aurelius
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W. Schütz




PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After doing some serious looking into the messer-market there seem to be very few high quality repros done so far, not surprising i guess. Albion is leading the way with high quality stuff coming soon tho, but in this case i wish they would set prices according to weapon length...

Ive come across some nice illustrations including messers in my futile searches;



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Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Travis Canaday




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Stilleborn wrote:
Albion is leading the way with high quality stuff coming soon tho, but in this case i wish they would set prices according to weapon length...;


It doesn't really make sense to set the price according to length, because constructing the hilt is what requires much of the labor. I believe this would be especially so with the messers.

Travis
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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Sat 16 Dec, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Messers         Reply with quote

W. Stilleborn wrote:
....Ive also really gotten smitten by this sort of hilt; http://www.olofsgillet.org/marsch/images/_MG_1659.jpg - and im trying to locate the original that has this type of hilt.

...


Hej Herr Stilleborn!

I made that Messer you saw on the page of the S:t Olof Guild. It was completed for the 2005 Knife maker show in Solingen, but did not find a new owner there.
Instead Alex Graff of the Guild of Sain Olaf took care of it. I am very happy the sword has found a home with him.

The blade for this messer is actually my handforged prototype/study for the Meister messer i the Next Generation line. I do that sometimes, to confirm and try out ideas.
I have developed quite a fasciantion for these weapons, just like you express yourself. They are stange in that they come across as simple utilitarian tools, but they should not be underestimated. In trying to wrap my mind around them I found out that there is actually quite a bit of sublte details that do matter for the outcome.

They need to look their part: even if they can sometimes be fancy, they need to be dependable and sturdy, but not so much that they become clumsy. These are quick and very functional weapons (for the most part). There is a lot of forging to shape and fitting in these when you do them by hand (like a mix between forging a sword, an axe and a war hammer: the same type of froging and file work for final fitting). Much more involved work than in a regular sword hilt. When it comes to the pricing of the Next generation Messers, let me assure you that Eric and crew who put these together earn every penny. This is fiddly work: much more handwork and fitting than is the case with a regular Next Generation sword.
If you want to go lower in price you need to find a qualitfied smith who lives in an area where living standards are markedly lower, or someone who do bladesmithing on a hobby basis without the need to support himself on his work.
That, or you will have to accept compromises in function, design, finish and authenticity.

You cannot price a messer fo blade length. Even if the blade is more complex than one might think from looking at picures, the real labour is in the fitting of the guard and making the hilt components meet with tight tolerances.


Good luck in your quest!

...And thank you for your appreciation Happy

Best
Peter
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W. Schütz




PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My comment on pricing a sword according to length was ofcourse a JOKE! Comon fellas..

And yes the hilt of that messer you have done displays unusual skill and it was really vexing trying to figure out who might have made it, now i know more, thank you. Its really amazing work and as usual the Guild of St Olavs members has amazing equipment.
And thank you Peter for the rundown on the messer, you confirm my suspisions that the messer is no pushover to manufacture - just like armouring what is preceived as "simple" (milanese) is the hardest to get right, and few can do it.

Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding the guard:

No, it is not based on any single original. I normally give myself freedom to work within a style, rather than copying a specific single original. There can often be feaures in several originals I want to combine.
Sometimes I incorporate features seen in art (There are many depictions of these weapons in late 15th C art). I try to take note of hilt details whenever visiting art museums, to have material for variation and inspiration.
Even if I have drawings and measurements of a selection of original swords, it is fun to develop the actual shaping from other sources. Sometimes you see an appealing sword or dagger in a painting for an altar. There might be a detail in the hilt, the scabbard or even something about the whole weapon that is the basis for a new project. Perhaps there are several weapons that contribute in this way: no surviving specimen might exist today that share this exact design, but there might be weapons of the same functional type that can give clues to the character of the weapon.

The treatment of the volume with bevels, ridges and hollows can be seen on hilts of other types of weapons as well, not just messers. Even in iron work that is not weapon related, like hinges and reinforcing decorative bands on chests and furniture this play between diagonals and bevels can be seen. It is really a basic feature in the late gothic repetoir of decorative iron work: it can be seen in most any application of iron work, developed to various degrees.
The Victoria and Albert museum in London has a nice gallery displaying iron work from different periods. Next time you visit, make sure to spend some time there, and you will see how skillfully the shape is vitalized by simple use of bevels and decorative cuts. Such work is a major source of inspiration to me when working on sword furniture.

The basic type of guard was in this case inspired by a messer I documented in Skara County Museum. The final shaping of the hilt was inspired by a painting in Köln, where one of the soldiers arresting Christ was armed with a very fancy messer. The sculpting of the bevels was also influenced by a painting in the National Gallery in London (depicting a completely different type of sword, but with something going on that was somehow in character). All of these sources are contemporary: late 15th C. The original weapon in Skara is a very simple and utilitarian affair and even has another type of blade: a straight pointy wedge shaped thing. The blade as it finally came together is basically a scaled down version of a hand and a half messer in the store rooms of the Royal Armouries in Stockholm, but it has also been influenced by a few other weapons I got to handle in the Bayerishes Armé museum in Ingolstadt.



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W. Schütz




PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter, your work and research is (as usual) second to none. Once more its getting hard to settle for anything less then Albions products.
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Patrick Kelly




PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,

That is an absolutely beautiful messer. I've developed quite an interest in these weapons, thanks to your work on them. I love the shaping and proportions of this hilt. Do you have any photos of the whole sword? I'd love to see them.
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Travis Canaday




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Peter,

That is an absolutely beautiful messer. I've developed quite an interest in these weapons, thanks to your work on them. I love the shaping and proportions of this hilt. Do you have any photos of the whole sword? I'd love to see them.


I totally agree. That hilt on that messer is too damn cool.

I would also really enjoy seeing pictures of the whole thing.

Travis
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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Sun 17 Dec, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks , glad you like it Happy

...but sorry, no pics. I am not very good at documenting my own work I am afraid.

The blade is really just about identical to the Meister.
If you can imagine the Meister blade with my hilt, you got it.



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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Sinister beauty         Reply with quote

Wow Peter, I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but that is one mean looking weapon. You've really developed a good instinct for capturing the asthetic of European edged weaponry, elegance and grace with a strong undertone of the sinister...

Keep up the good work amigo

Jean

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a full-length view of Peter's messer:

http://www.olofsgillet.org/marsch/images/_MG_1733.jpg

Check out neighboring images for views of the scabbard. In fact, take a look at the entire image archive. Amazing stuff!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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