| Author |
Message |
Jared Smith
|
 Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Allwhyte armour? |
 |
|
This is related to Nathan Robinson's recent post on "black sallets".
I ran accross an article making historical claims about "whitesmiths" guilds and production of armour with no exposure to heating. Blakenshield armoury / livesteelarmour.com currently has the aritcle here.
http://www.livesteelarmor.com/how/cas.html
The interesting claim is that the armour made for functional use was often left with clear dimples showing that planishing (hammering and cold working of the surface) was preferred for quality in a functional and light weight plate. Grinding type polishing and excessive burnishing of finishes actually do remove the hardened cold forged surface created by plannishing.
There were a variety of methods that did create "blackened" surfaces such as forming the armour over pitch forms, etc.
I am curious how many others have a similar interpretation of "whyte armour" not actually being brightly polished.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
|
|
  |
 |
Dan Howard
|
| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
IIRC members of the "whitesmith" guild were men who worked with tin and its alloys. Just as a "redsmith" works with copper alloys. A "blacksmith" works with iron.
|
|
|
|
|
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: Whitesmiths |
|
|
Hi Jared
Dan is correct, though there were iron workers as well referred to as whitesmiths.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
Whitesmith \White"smith`\, n.
1. One who works in tinned or galvanized iron, or white iron;
a tinsmith.
2. A worker in iron who finishes or polishes the work, in
distinction from one who forges it.
There are examples of armor being tinned in period as a corrosion resistance measure and decorative technique.
I read through the information on the site you linked and wile agree with some statements I would be leery of others. The unsourced nature of the writing does not give any way to verify information and claims made by the writer that seem to challenge modern research and discoveries cannot be assessed for their value other than opinion.
The constructional comments are the same and there are several instances where I disagree. Al's commentary based on unknown sources that have "special" information are always a flag for one who is interested in finding good information.
Here are a couple of good sources to check on the issue.
Some Aspects of the Metallurgy and Production of European Armor
Williams, Dr. Alan R., & Anthony de Reuck, The Royal Armoury at Greenwich 1515-1649, A history of its Technology, Royal Armouries, Monograph 4, 1995, London.
Pfaffenbiehler, Mathias, Medieval Craftsmen, Armourers, 1992, Toronto.
And the best and of course the most expensive
The Knight and the Blast Furnace: A History of the Metallurgy of Armour in the Middle Ages and Early Modern Periods
by Williams, Dr. Alan R
Hope this helps
Craig
Above post edited for the most miss spelled words I have done in quite a while
Last edited by Craig Johnson on Tue 02 Jan, 2007 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
  |
|
James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
|
| Posted: Mon 01 Jan, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The stuff the fellow at Blakenshield had written is mocked all over the place. He makes some strange claims. For instance that all edges on armor were rolled edges and that they are cut off before display; trust nothing you read there.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | The stuff the fellow at Blakenshield had written is mocked all over the place. He makes some strange claims. For instance that all edges on armor were rolled edges and that they are cut off before display; trust nothing you read there. |
If Mr Blankenshield were right, all the materials kept in museums or excavated or kept in private collections would be elaborate modern fakes.
That man is a sort of science fiction historian, the Peter Kolosimo of the armouring research field.
His claims work only on people that haven\'t yet seen a museum. When they do it they can really appreciate the difference between what he writes and reality.
His claims are useful to him just to peddle the armour he produces using techniques he mutuated from the aluminium cold working techniques used during teh war to build airplanes.
He openly declares that this was his training and family businness.
You should just compare his sword making techniques to that of any professional swordmaker you could encounter heer or at swordforum.
Cold flatetning a truck leaf spring is definitely not teh best method of making a sword, it is precisely that in use at thirld world sword making facilities.
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Allwhyte armour? |
|
|
| Jared Smith wrote: | This is related to Nathan Robinson's recent post on "black sallets".
I ran accross an article making historical claims about "whitesmiths" guilds and production of armour with no exposure to heating. Blakenshield armoury / livesteelarmour.com currently has the aritcle here.
http://www.livesteelarmor.com/how/cas.html
The interesting claim is that the armour made for functional use was often left with clear dimples showing that planishing (hammering and cold working of the surface) was preferred for quality in a functional and light weight plate. Grinding type polishing and excessive burnishing of finishes actually do remove the hardened cold forged surface created by plannishing.
There were a variety of methods that did create "blackened" surfaces such as forming the armour over pitch forms, etc.
I am curious how many others have a similar interpretation of "whyte armour" not actually being brightly polished. |
BTW the claim goes against the assumption of Mr Blshield that armour was mainly worked cold.
Carburizing in the forge requires long time exposure in the forge itself, which contrasts with the idea of a cold worked armour.
|
|
|
|
|
Jared Smith
|
| Posted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the feedback. I had tried to search and corroborate some of the information and was pretty unsucessful at confirming the claimed content of specific statutes, and incidents that supposedly led to exclusion of blacksmiths (per the article's claim) from the armoring process.
It is my understanding that many modern armourers utilize high quality modern sheet metal (does not need carburizing) and cold forming as a primary construction method. I am working towards the purchase of a welder (electrical circuit must come first) and don't know of any functional objections to welding some seams if it enables the hobbiest to make do with fewer tools and sizes of metal sheet that can be found at the local hardware store.
The plannishing process does seem like something beneficial, and I figure one would not want to cause excessive thinning of the metal or unnecessary grinding/ polishing removal of work hardened surfaces. An elderly friend of mine who does metal working (and former pattern welding) said his German grandfather had taught him to dish metal sheet against a depression in a wood tree stump, but to lay a sand filled leather bag on the wood depression to avoid unnecessary marring of the metals' surface. He viewed the benefit of the technique strictly as a smart manner of economy so as to complete the work with a minimum of labor (less grinding and polishing), tools, and material waste.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
|
|
|
|
|
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: Armorer work |
|
|
Hi Jared
There are a couple of things to do for the modern hobbyist armorer that will help a lot.
One check out the Pfaffenbiehler book mentioned above. Most libraries should have it. It is not that big but has some good descriptions of the period production of armour.
A copy of Brian Prices book and the book put out by Rob Valentine are also good lead ins to approaching the subject.
I would also cruise the Armour Archive and Arador Armour Library. Both good sources for constructional advise on armour.
Best
Craig
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Wed 03 Jan, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jared Smith wrote: | Thanks for the feedback. I had tried to search and corroborate some of the information and was pretty unsucessful at confirming the claimed content of specific statutes, and incidents that supposedly led to exclusion of blacksmiths (per the article\'s claim) from the armoring process.
It is my understanding that many modern armourers utilize high quality modern sheet metal (does not need carburizing) and cold forming as a primary construction method. I am working towards the purchase of a welder (electrical circuit must come first) and don\'t know of any functional objections to welding some seams if it enables the hobbiest to make do with fewer tools and sizes of metal sheet that can be found at the local hardware store.
The plannishing process does seem like something beneficial, and I figure one would not want to cause excessive thinning of the metal or unnecessary grinding/ polishing removal of work hardened surfaces. An elderly friend of mine who does metal working (and former pattern welding) said his German grandfather had taught him to dish metal sheet against a depression in a wood tree stump, but to lay a sand filled leather bag on the wood depression to avoid unnecessary marring of the metals\' surface. He viewed the benefit of the technique strictly as a smart manner of economy so as to complete the work with a minimum of labor (less grinding and polishing), tools, and material waste. |
Yes, I have heard also of a technique of local artisans who were using a sheet of lead lad down the tree spump that would absorb the shocks and would allow a better forming of the metal.
Also we must consider that scholars like Vannozzo Posio (curator of the Mantua\'s Diocesan Museum) and an expert of such armors for many years states clearly that they were using first hot forming on negative \"masks\", then they would use cold dishing just to increase the strength of the cold formed piece.
The use of absorbing materials like the aforementioned sand bags r lead layers should be aken into account too.
That is why most modern pieces look so artificially straight.
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Wed 03 Jan, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| James Barker wrote: | | The stuff the fellow at Blakenshield had written is mocked all over the place. He makes some strange claims. For instance that all edges on armor were rolled edges and that they are cut off before display; trust nothing you read there. |
It is true that the materials we see in museums were manipulated and badly altered in some cases (tehre was an inetresting post on this forum about the bluings that were lost in victorian times.
But what the author of the sites states is greatluy exaggerated, there are stllr emarkalbly intact piecs, it is sufficient to look at the best collections.
Obviously one must every be wary of leather strappings (any colection coming from a single collector will feature thesame style ...) as well as of brass rivets, which were largely replaced.
But the shape of most items is intact, th decorations on armor is not so easily faked, in the 19th century tehre were not large facilities turning blank armor into exquisitely etched renaissance armor.
Only a few people would hve that ability, especially because the style of the XVI century was alredy difficult to imitate in a century heavily influenced by otehr artistical tendencies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic