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Michael Edelson
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 Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi Mike,
I think it's pretty unconvincing to accuse someone of conjecture to be avoided when you're inventing scenarios of jack-clad bandits to justify your cutting. |
I don't need any such scenarios to justify my cutting. I do it to the extent I do for the same reason some Japanese arts do it, and for you to dismiss those reasons without understanding them is very similar to what I was accused of doing with clasical fencing, is it not?
Further more, I said "that kind" of conjecture. We all conjecture in some ways out of necessity, but we conjecture about different things.
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If we take the text at face, which certainly doesn't say to strike past the guy, it says to strike so your "point is before his face or chest". We don't need a lot of conjecture to conclude that the point should be before the face or body, because it says that. |
That's your read on that, and I respect that, but I do not agree. Nor do I agree with your other points about full blows, nor is that passage a significant part of my justification for full blows. If Cory Winslow gets in on this, he will be able to show you such justifications better than I can, including a particular Talhoffer image that shows a strike from behind and over the head all the way down. But I'll leave that to him.
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As a final note, let's stop with the "if you disagree with me, you're advocating dogma" accusations, which you've now done twice in this thread. No one's doing any such thing - they just happen to think you're wrong. Accusing people of silencing the opposition when your arguments don't convince them is an unreasonable way to debate.
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That's not what I meant at all. My point is that there should be multiple views, not one person insisting they are right. I do not insist I am right. I insist that my approach has value, and add that your approach and that of others also has value. You, on the other hand, seem to be insisting that I am wrong and you are right, and that *this* is the way the text reads, and therefore *this* is how it should be. There is a fundamentally different way in which we approach this discussion, and that's what I wanted to point out.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jean,
That's certainly a pitfall with cutting practice of any kind: people get so fixated on "getting through the target" that they add in all sorts of anomalies to the rest of their technique.
In German, and Italian, medieval swordsmanship, controlling the center is of paramount importance. We see this in warnings against wide and sweeping blows, in advice that the point is "the center of all swordsmanship", and in many areas where we're told to threaten the openings of the man with the point.
It's significant that the swords associated with the late medieval fighting traditions on either side of the Alps are so optimized for the thrust. If you really wanted to have an art optimized focuses on stronger, cleaving blows, you'd see different sword geometries, I suspect.
All training is a balancing act between different aspects/needs: you need to cut with authority, but you need to not 'over train' this so that it makes you lose other aspects of the fight. As the old saying goes "everything in moderation." 
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
That's certainly a pitfall with cutting practice of any kind: people get so fixated on "getting through the target" that they add in all sorts of anomalies to the rest of their technique.
In German, and Italian, medieval swordsmanship, controlling the center is of paramount importance. We see this in warnings against wide and sweeping blows, in advice that the point is "the center of all swordsmanship", and in many areas where we're told to threaten the openings of the man with the point. |
The concept of center is incredibly strong in Toyama Ryu. There are actually aspects of keeping/controlling center that no one I've seen in HEMA know or practice, and that includes you. I didn't know about them either, until fairly recently, and they changed the way I do things tremendously. And Toyama ryu people cut. A lot. And they do full cuts along with smaller cuts and everything in between.
| Quote: |
It's significant that the swords associated with the late medieval fighting traditions on either side of the Alps are so optimized for the thrust. If you really wanted to have an art optimized focuses on stronger, cleaving blows, you'd see different sword geometries, I suspect. |
Like the Brescia Spadona? Or other swords of type XVIa? Or the XVIIIc?
| Quote: | All training is a balancing act between different aspects/needs: you need to cut with authority, but you need to not 'over train' this so that it makes you lose other aspects of the fight. As the old saying goes "everything in moderation."
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I have said several times that I believe in a balance of training types, and I spend FAR less time cutting than I do drilling, pell work or free fencing.
So what exactly is not in moderation?
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi Jean,
That's certainly a pitfall with cutting practice of any kind: people get so fixated on "getting through the target" that they add in all sorts of anomalies to the rest of their technique.
In German, and Italian, medieval swordsmanship, controlling the center is of paramount importance. We see this in warnings against wide and sweeping blows, in advice that the point is "the center of all swordsmanship", and in many areas where we're told to threaten the openings of the man with the point.
It's significant that the swords associated with the late medieval fighting traditions on either side of the Alps are so optimized for the thrust. If you really wanted to have an art optimized focuses on stronger, cleaving blows, you'd see different sword geometries, I suspect.
All training is a balancing act between different aspects/needs: you need to cut with authority, but you need to not 'over train' this so that it makes you lose other aspects of the fight. As the old saying goes "everything in moderation."
Cheers,
Christian |
It's still instructive to view cutting styles where everything else but cutting is the priority just as very good examples of what to avoid as extremes in technique:.
I always say " everything in moderation " including moderation: Occasionally going to excess with anything can be good as long as it isn't illegal/unethical, doesn't become a bad habit or addiction or doesn't permanently harm or kills you.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mike,
| Quote: | | I don't need any such scenarios to justify my cutting. I do it to the extent I do for the same reason some Japanese arts do it, and for you to dismiss those reasons without understanding them is very similar to what I was accused of doing with clasical fencing, is it not? |
I don't know what this discussion has to do with a different thread on a different forum. Who's talking about Classical Fencing here?
Regarding conjecture, you did just that: create a hypothetical scenario justifying the need for penetrating many layers of fabric. Since no such scenario appears in our period fighting texts, that's conjecture.
| Quote: | | That's your read on that, and I respect that, but I do not agree. Nor do I agree with your other points about full blows, nor is that passage a significant part of my justification for full blows. If Cory Winslow gets in on this, he will be able to show you such justifications better than I can, including a particular Talhoffer image that shows a strike from behind and over the head all the way down. But I'll leave that to him. |
If you do think the passage advocates full blows, it raises the question: why is its focus on reach, not sweep? After all, it later concludes with (if you're doing what it says to do correctly): "Thus the strokes will be delivered long and straight." Long and straight as an optimum surely doesn't sound like "all to way around to over the opposite foot".
I'm not sure what images you're referring to, but I know of no images in Talhoffer that have text saying they're showing the beginning and ending of a blow from the Zufechten. If it does, it must show one that missed, right? Or has the man in the illustration cleaved all the way through someone? Without a target, how can we know the range the blow was delivered from?
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: |
So what exactly is not in moderation? |
I think maybe Christian means the type of cutting in the Coldsteel videos or the type of cutting done in cutting competitions in the knife world.
Probably not saying that you personally don't balance cutting practice with everything else but just a general caution to others who do put to much emphasis on just cutting very challenging targets.
( It's always tricky making a distinction about comments aimed specifically at one person as a rebuttal and rhetorical comments meant more generally. I find that when these thread go off the rails is often caused by the above or reading too much between the lines ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mike,
| Michael Edelson wrote: | | The concept of center is incredibly strong in Toyama Ryu. There are actually aspects of keeping/controlling center that no one I've seen in HEMA know or practice, and that includes you. I didn't know about them either, until fairly recently, and they changed the way I do things tremendously. And Toyama ryu people cut. A lot. And they do full cuts along with smaller cuts and everything in between. |
This discussion isn't a critique of Toyama Ryu, or any form of JSA - it's a critique of the application of one art into another and the (potential) problems in logic associated with that exercise.
Using your current martial art as justification for you to insult and critique the rest of the HEMA community, particularly against your former instructor, is bad form, and profoundly disrespectful. It's also a really disingenous form of argument, because what you're basically saying is "oh, I've seen truths you can't even imagine yet...", which is simply smug and condescending.
It's funny - I remember quite well when it was the other way around: when you used your new practice of German longsword to criticize JSA. I found that disrespectful then too.
| Quote: | | Like the Brescia Spadona? Or other swords of type XVIa? Or the XVIIIc? |
I'm not sure what this means, but perhaps you're saying these cut well. Sure, for their type. But if I were devising a two-handed sword system, focused strongly on cutting, I'd use a two-handed messer or...a katana. In the latter lies the problem: I feel you're over-reaching to fit a cutting-optimized, single-edged sword style into something quite different. There are lots of principles that overlap, but there are others that don't. Now, granted, we all have our "frog DNA" thrown into rebuilding our dinosaurs, but we also all need to be made aware of when we're doing it, me included.
| Quote: | I have said several times that I believe in a balance of training types, and I spend FAR less time cutting than I do drilling, pell work or free fencing.
So what exactly is not in moderation? |
I'd say worrying on cutting through fabric armoured opponents is not indicative of moderation. That's largely been my point throughout the thread.
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
Last edited by Christian Henry Tobler on Thu 24 Jun, 2010 10:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jean,
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | It's still instructive to view cutting styles where everything else but cutting is the priority just as very good examples of what to avoid as extremes in technique:.
I always say " everything in moderation " including moderation: Occasionally going to excess with anything can be good as long as it isn't illegal/unethical, doesn't become a bad habit or addiction or doesn't permanently harm or kills you. |
Yes, it's true. Over-training something can actually be really useful. The key is know that's what you're doing so that it really stays useful.
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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David E. Farrell
Location: Evanston, IL Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Mele wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: |
Hemp rope...interesting. Where do you get it and how much? |
Tent makers, and no pricing to hand, but not much. Knife guys do this a lot, which is where I got the idea. |
Just to add some more detail:
I have also picked it up at places like Home Depot and the like - trick is to make sure you *don't* get synthetic rope. That is hell on blades apparently (the flats get scuffed up, if you cut through at all) and is often much stiffer so doesn't reinforce the same concepts.
I think the last time I had to pick some up it was 1/2" and 3/4" - and when hung, the idea is to have it free hanging and the cuts are to be done to try and remove as short a piece from the end as possible (starting at say 10", going down to like 2"). The smaller the piece, the harder it tends to be since you have less mass acting as a sort of weight keeping tension on the line.
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later )
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare
Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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David E. Farrell
Location: Evanston, IL Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hey Sparky,
So you guys don't weight the rope at all? That does sound challenging to cut!
Cheers,
CHT |
Nope - and it is... especially with a XVa like my black prince (made the worse by some dulling from cuttings since the last time I had it sharpened). But like Greg said, with good form and speed it can be done and really emphasizes speed, follow-through and edge alignment.
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later )
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare
Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hey Sparky,
So you guys don't weight the rope at all? That does sound challenging to cut!
Cheers,
CHT |
I've never done it myself by the way just to give context but in the Coldsteel videos the rope doesn't seem to be weighted at all and at times there may be up to 6 ropes tied together depending on the size of the weapon.
I think 1" manila rope is cut in some of these videos with a short 4" folding knife and this would seem to take skill as well as a really sharp knife. The techniques all seem way overcommitted for anything else but test cutting.
The angle of attack seems important as I don't think a cut at 90 degrees to the rope(s) would work: At a steep angle if the edge bites in at all then it's probably the draw cut with tension on the rope that is part of the secret of doing this.
It still looks impressive but it also looks like the perfect definition of " BUFFALO " as far as overcommitted technique is concerned.
( I also collect folding knives and used to read all the knife magazines so I was somewhat aware of these cutting test in the knife collector's world although I have no idea how difficult it is to learn to cut like this ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
This discussion isn't a critique of Toyama Ryu, or any form of JSA - it's a critique of the application of one art into another and the (potential) problems in logic associated with that exercise. |
I am aware of such problems, having studied both arts in depth, and am working hard to make sure that doesn't happen. This is partly why I value multiple approaches, because I can use the work of others (that do things very differently) to gauge my own work and keep it true.
| Quote: |
Using your current martial art as justification for you to insult and critique the rest of the HEMA community, particularly against your former instructor, is bad form, and profoundly disrespectful. It's also a really disingenous form of argument, because what you're basically saying is "oh, I've seen truths you can't even imagine yet...", which is simply smug and condescending. |
I have been trying very hard to not be confrontational, so I'm very sorry you took it that way. What I was trying to say was that I have come accross a bit of information that I have not seen evidence of in those practictioners that I have interacted with. This, from my perspective, is a very good thing. If someone else said it, and I believed him/her, I would get very excited, hoping this person would share. And indeed, I am more than willing to do so. There have been many times when others have helped me with information I did not have. I can't count how many times Cory Winslow, or John Bax, or Bill Grandy. or you, have helped me in this manner. I regret that you saw my statement as a show of disrespect, when I am merely excited to share my own bit of insight with those who have helped me.
The point of linking it to this discussion is that I read in your posts (perhaps incorrectly?) that you think that cutting through something and keeping/holding center are mutually exclusive. This is not so, and the fact that Toyama Ryu, which cuts through things quite a bit more than I do, has taught me so much about the concept of center is of great significance to this discussion.
| Quote: |
your former instructor |
This is something we should discuss offline.
| Quote: | | I'm not sure what this means, but perhaps you're saying these cut well. Sure, for their type. But if I were devising a two-handed sword system, focused strongly on cutting, I'd use a two-handed messer or...a katana. In the latter lies the problem: I feel you're over-reaching to fit a cutting-optimized, single-edged sword style into something quite different. There are lots of principles that overlap, but there are others that don't. Now, granted, we all have our "frog DNA" thrown into rebuilding our dinosaurs, but we also all need to be made aware of when we're doing it, me included. |
As you yourself have said in the past, the art comes from the weapon, not the other way around, so I find it curious that you're taking such a position. Nothing I'm working on is remotely near the limits of the longsword, so I don't see the applicability. Many longsword types are, in the right hands, phenomenal cutters.
| Quote: | | I'd say worrying on cutting through fabric armoured opponents is not indicative of moderation. That's largely been my point throughout the thread. |
I pointed out many times that the fabric I am concerned with cutting is the daily wear of the average medieval man. The jack thing is a huge tangent, and in no way is my curriculum or practice based around the need to cut through jacks. I do think it's an important skill to have, but that's the extent of it.
A medieval man in colder seasons wore 2-4 layers of linen and 2-3 of wool. That is not an insignificant obstacle to cut into. Are you telling me you don't think it is important for a Liechtenauer swordsman to be able to penetrate street clothing with his sword?
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:03 am; edited 7 times in total
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David E. Farrell
Location: Evanston, IL Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hey Sparky,
So you guys don't weight the rope at all? That does sound challenging to cut!
Cheers,
CHT |
I've never done it myself by the way just to give context but in the Coldsteel videos the rope doesn't seem to be weighted at all and at times there may be up to 6 ropes tied together depending on the size of the weapon.
I think 1" manila rope is cut in some of these videos with a short 4" folding knife and this would seem to take skill as well as a really sharp knife. The techniques all seem way overcommitted for anything else but test cutting.
The angle of attack seems important as I don't think a cut at 90 degrees to the rope(s) would work: At a steep angle if the edge bites in at all then it's probably the draw cut with tension on the rope that is part of the secret of doing this.
It still looks impressive but it also looks like the perfect definition of " BUFFALO " as far as overcommitted technique is concerned.
( I also collect folding knives and used to read all the knife magazines so I was somewhat aware of these cutting test in the knife collector's world although I have no idea how difficult it is to learn to cut like this ). |
To be honest, I think all the Cold Steel cutting videos (at least those few I have seen) are best left for drunken watching after a hard day's training. They really are quite terrible as anything other than mental stroking for some parts of their target market. I've seen much better cutting in youtube videos (certainly better music choices).
Their choice of targets and cutting methods both are really more for show (in the old sense of 'hey, it didn't break!' ) than anything martially useful
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later )
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare
Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| David E. Farrell wrote: |
To be honest, I think all the Cold Steel cutting videos (at least those few I have seen) are best left for drunken watching after a hard day's training. They really are quite terrible as anything other than mental stroking for some parts of their target market. I've seen much better cutting in youtube videos (certainly better music choices).
Their choice of targets and cutting methods both are really more for show (in the old sense of 'hey, it didn't break!' ) than anything martially useful |
I dunno...I loved their zweihander cutting video. The people doing the cutting were just hacking away with no thought of technique, but I took that for granted. The things they cut through were impressive to say the least. I still can't get the image of that pig's skull out of my head.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| David E. Farrell wrote: |
To be honest, I think all the Cold Steel cutting videos (at least those few I have seen) are best left for drunken watching after a hard day's training. They really are quite terrible as anything other than mental stroking for some parts of their target market. I've seen much better cutting in youtube videos (certainly better music choices).
Their choice of targets and cutting methods both are really more for show (in the old sense of 'hey, it didn't break!' ) than anything martially useful |
Yes I completely agree and used them as an example of " cutting " as they do manage to cut but not as an example of the best form to emulate.  
It's mostly all marketing and more than a bit of ego trip by the head of Coldsteel ( but I don't want to make this an issue and I have no reason to disrespect him since I do like his knives a lot. )
I'm pretty sure that failed cuts or missed throws didn't make it to the final " CUT " of the videos so that only when it worked is it on the clips.
Notice my " BUFFALO " comment.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mike,
| Michael Edelson wrote: | | I am aware of such problems, having studied both arts in depth, and am working hard to make sure that doesn't happen. This is partly why I value multiple approaches, because I can use the work of others (that do things very differently) to gauge my own work and keep it true. |
I suppose that depends on what qualifies as 'in depth'. I have very serious questions on both accounts here, which is why I continue to question the degree of 'preaching' you've been devoting to this, and other, matters of late.
| Quote: | | I have been trying very hard to not be confrontational, so I'm very sorry you took it that way. What I was trying to say was that I have come accross a bit of information that I have not seen evidence of in those practictioners that I have interacted with. This, from my perspective, is a very good thing. If someone else said it, and I believed him/her, I would get very excited, hoping this person would share. And indeed, I am more than willing to do so. There have been many times when others have helped me with information I did not have. I can't count how many times Cory Winslow, or Bill, or you, have helped me in this manner. I regret that you saw my statement as a show of disrespect, when I am merely excited to share my own bit of insight with those who have helped me. |
I'll stand by my earlier comment, based on prior experience and how this has read. It is a truism that those who most often need to remind people of how much they respect others are the ones who actually hold that sentiment the least.
| Quote: | | The point of linking it to this discussion is that I read in your posts (perhaps incorrectly?) that you think that cutting through something and keeping/holding center are mutually exclusive. This is not so, and the fact that Toyama Ryu, which cuts through things quite a bit more than I do, has taught me so much about the concept of center, is of great significance to this discussion. |
Cutting through what? A human head? The chest? If we're told to strike to those targets from wide measure, how are you going to cut *through*, or try to cut through, those targets and hold the center?
| Quote: | | This is something we should discuss offline. |
If that's an attempt to deny that such a situation did exist, no, we won't be talking about it offline.
| Quote: | | As you yourself have said in the past, the art comes from the weapon, not the other way around, so I find it curious that you're taking such a position. Nothing I'm working on is remotely near the limits of the longsword, so I don't see the applicability. Many longsword types are, in the right hands, phenomenal cutters. |
But they're still not the optimum geometry for it, just as a katana isn't optimal for thrusting. Yes, it can do that, but it's not the design you'd use for a thrust-heavy art.
| Quote: | | I pointed out many times that the fabric I am concerned with cutting is the daily wear of the average medieval man? The jack thing is a huge tangent, and in no way is my curriculum or practice based around the need to cut through jacks. I do think it's an important skill to have, but that's the extent of it. |
And hence the gist of the debate. I don't.
| Quote: | | A medieval man in colder seasons wore 2-4 layers of linen and 2-3 of wool. That is not an insignificant obstacle to cut into. Are you telling me you don't think it is important for a Liechtenauer swordsman to be able to penetrate street clothing with his sword? |
A blow to the head is unaffected by this concern. A blow to the collar area will pulverize it regardless unless armour is protecting it. So, yes, I think it's *somewhat* important. What's more important is *hitting* him safely, before he hits me, or in a manner that locks out his attack. That's more important to optimize for than penetration; and that's why we're told to avoid wide and sweeping blows.
And with that, I really feel the conversation has been just about exhausted. Unless there's more information about rope-cutting, naturally...
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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David E. Farrell
Location: Evanston, IL Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | David E. Farrell wrote: |
To be honest, I think all the Cold Steel cutting videos (at least those few I have seen) are best left for drunken watching after a hard day's training. They really are quite terrible as anything other than mental stroking for some parts of their target market. I've seen much better cutting in youtube videos (certainly better music choices).
Their choice of targets and cutting methods both are really more for show (in the old sense of 'hey, it didn't break!' ) than anything martially useful |
I dunno...I loved their zweihander cutting video. The people doing the cutting were just hacking away with no thought of technique, but I took that for granted. The things they cut through were impressive to say the least. I still can't get the image of that pig's skull out of my head. |
true - let me modify my statement: Many of their targets and methods are to my mind just showing off the durability (I actually think they may even say this). The meat cutting is rather interesting to see what happens, though without good technique I still wouldn't call it martially useful because of the execution of the cut (at least as I remember it).
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later )
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare
Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
I suppose that depends on what qualifies as 'in depth'. I have very serious questions on both accounts here, which is why I continue to question the degree of 'preaching' you've been devoting to this, and other, matters of late.
I'll stand by my earlier comment, based on prior experience and how this has read. It is a truism that those who most often need to remind people of how much they respect others are the ones who actually hold that sentiment the least. |
I don't think such comments are appropriate here, nor are they particularly different than what you accuse me of doing, except that in this case I'm pretty sure it's deliberate.
| Quote: | | Cutting through what? A human head? The chest? If we're told to strike to those targets from wide measure, how are you going to cut *through*, or try to cut through, those targets and hold the center? |
I would also be happy to attempt to describe it, if you actually want to hear it, but I suspect that you don't. If you wish, though, we can take a moment at CW and I can show you what I mean. It's fairly easily demonstrated. But to start, we seem to have different definitions of the word "through."
| Quote: | | But they're still not the optimum geometry for it, just as a katana isn't optimal for thrusting. Yes, it can do that, but it's not the design you'd use for a thrust-heavy art. |
Well, if you're going to go that far, a katana isn't optimal for cutting either. There are far more cut optimized swords, and yet the Japanese did just fine.
| Quote: | | And hence the gist of the debate. I don't. |
And since my cutting practice, as it inovles our curriculum, does not in any way revolve around this (only one of my people has ever attempted to cut a jack and that was not during class), this is not relevant to this discussion.
It's cool that you think you don't need to be able to do this.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | A medieval man in colder seasons wore 2-4 layers of linen and 2-3 of wool. That is not an insignificant obstacle to cut into. Are you telling me you don't think it is important for a Liechtenauer swordsman to be able to penetrate street clothing with his sword? |
A blow to the head is unaffected by this concern. A blow to the collar area will pulverize it regardless unless armour is protecting it. So, yes, I think it's *somewhat* important. What's more important is *hitting* him safely, before he hits me, or in a manner that locks out his attack. That's more important to optimize for than penetration; and that's why we're told to avoid wide and sweeping blows. |
I think I've addressed this point quite enough.
| Quote: | | And with that, I really feel the conversation has been just about exhausted. Unless there's more information about rope-cutting, naturally... |
Interesting that you don't have the same reservations about rope cutting, particularly after noting how challenging it must be with an unweighted rope.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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