| Author |
Message |
Kai Lawson
|
 Posted: Thu 25 Sep, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Erik--would you mind posting a picture or two of some of your new rings? I think many here would love to see them.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
|
|
  |
 |
|
Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
|
| Posted: Fri 26 Sep, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Eric S wrote: |
Mac, if you have a way to show the final process of setting the rivet more clearly that would be helpful, I think you have shown everything up to the rivet setting step in a way that anyone can follow. |
I built a new tool for closing the rings. It works OK.....but it's not all it should be. It started of as a crimping tool from "Horrible Freight" http://www.harborfreight.com/9-1-2-half-inch-...36411.html
...which I modified.
 
Here is a ring with the rivet placed in the slit.
The closing procedure is pretty straightforward. It happens in two stages. The ring is placed in the first "station" in the tool and given a squeeze. This presses the rivet all the way in and gives the back of the ring a bit of curve.
 
 
Then the ring goes to the second "station" in the tool and given another squeeze. This collapses the point of the rivet and any of the surrounding ring material into a nice neat bump.
 
The problem with this tool is that it is too bulky to close the rings once they are knitted in. It is not so bad on an edge like here in this pic, but getting at a ring that is already linked with four others is too difficult. I am not quite ready to abandon the overall idea of this tool yet, but I think the next one needs to have the two "stations" closer together.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
|
|
 |
|
|
Julio Junco
|
| Posted: Fri 26 Sep, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Maybe it would be better to put your "stations"in parallel, something like this tool, it is a plier carpenter modified.
The work area is very narrow so you can knit easily.
Juliio
 Attachment: 26.19 KB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
|
| Posted: Fri 26 Sep, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Julio,
Funny you should mention it. I started in on a new tool right after I posted.
The new tool is based on an end nipper from the same economical source as the other. http://www.harborfreight.com/10-heavy-duty-end-nipper-60815.html
I ground away much of the width, and changed the shape of the jaws a bit to bring bring the working surfaces closer to the pivot.
The rivet driving station is on one side......
....and the rivet closing station on the other. One flips the tool over between operations.
Here are a couple of test rings. I cut these with less "pointy" overlaps because I was having trouble getting the longer points to behave. (so many different problems, and they are all interrelated)
Mac
Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
| Posted: Sun 28 Sep, 2014 12:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Mac, thanks for sharing your secrets.
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
| Posted: Sun 28 Sep, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Eric S wrote: | I am putting some information from a thread on this forum and a thread from another forum together here. Mart posted some information on Wade Allens hauberk M2. ( http://www.allenantiques.com/M-2.html ) It is a long horsemans type with a split up the front and back, all European wedge riveted mail, it has been suggested that the mail is 14th or early 15th (possibly Milanese).
I noticed a similarity between Wade Allens M2 hauberk and three other hauberks that I know of, these were also of the same type with a long split up the front and back. All four have some similarities and differences, it has been suggested that possibly all or some of these hauberks were either made for or sold to the Indo-Persian market. There is evidence of trade between European countries and several Indo-Persian countries in both arms and armor.
All four have a long front and back split and a split at the collar, three of the hauberks have similar standing leather collars, all four appear to be made with wedge riveted mail with one of the four having alternating wedge rivets and solid links, two have a wide flat area at the top of the front and back splits which looks typically Indo-Persian. The outer rivet heads on all four hauberks are very worn, to the point that the metal appears to be smooth and the rivet heads look like small rounded bumps instead of being pronounced, showing age and use. So far two of the hauberks have been said to possibly be constructed with Italian mail with a time period ranging from 14th or early 15th century on one to 15th to 16th century for the other, two have no opinions yet on age or origin. Two have been weighed one was 16 lbs, the other 18 lbs.
Here are some photographs of the four hauberks along with some detailed images of the links.
Wade Allens hauberk M2 is top left.
#1. Wade Allens M2, 16 lbs.
#2. Wedge riveted with alternating solid links, 18 lbs.
#3. 
#4. 
 |
Here are two more examples of the same type of riveted mail hauberks, #5. is round riveted, it does not look like Indo-Persian mail to me, it looks European, #6. appears to be all wedge riveted and European as well.
#5 Round riveted.
All wedge riveted.
#6. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
|
| Posted: Sun 28 Sep, 2014 7:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Eric S wrote: | | Mac, thanks for sharing your secrets. |
You are quite welcome. I have a policy about "secrets". I am willing to share techniques anyone who is interested. On the whole, I give more than I get, but that's OK.
The craftsmen of old had secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mart Shearer
|
| Posted: Sun 28 Sep, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Eric,
I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
| Posted: Tue 30 Sep, 2014 6:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
I finally found an image of the links from a Tibetan armor, it is all riveted, unfortunately no view of the back side of the links.
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799 |
The owner of hauberk #5 told me that it is all riveted,.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mart Shearer
|
| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from?
Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mart Shearer wrote: |
Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from?
Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through. |
Mart I was thinking that maybe there was a repair made using a patch of old mail, I recently saw an Indian theta link mail and plate shirt that had a patch of demi riveted mail inserted to repair a hole. I asked for more pictures, still waiting.
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
|
|
|
|
|
Len Parker
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
|
| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
First pic is a fragment described as 'celtic' mail thats on display in Bern and the other some mail attached to a lovely early milanese gauntlet at Sion Castle Museum, Switzerland. Last is a shirt in the same museum, think it was late 15th/early 16th. cant seem to find it in my notes. i have a few more pics I can send if anyone wants.
Griff
Attachment: 464.54 KB
[ Download ]
Attachment: 252.2 KB
[ Download ]
Attachment: 435.44 KB
[ Download ]
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mart Shearer
|
| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
|
|
|
|
|
Eric S
|
| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mart Shearer wrote: | | That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them. |
Mark, its hard to tell but is the mail on this mitten riveted?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
|
| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sadly I was without my decent camera, just iPhone pics so everything depended on the lighting. I'll do some re-sizing on the shirt pics and post up.
I can see some rivets on the mail mitten but couldn't swear to all of them. Also a bit limited at the mo on doing a zoom on that image so if someone wants me to email them the originals, drop me a line. mark@griffinhistorical.com
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
|
| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 1:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
that shirt.
These are also the only pics i got of that Sword too...nice inlay on the pommel. Cant say anything more about it, looks river found.
Attachment: 411.7 KB
[ Download ]
Attachment: 499.32 KB
[ Download ]
Attachment: 342.98 KB
[ Download ]
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a 
