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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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 Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, tha'ts how the chains are done on the HungaroPolish blades, too...
I can't afford that sucker, but WOW. Some nice images, for certain.
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Nate C. wrote: | Hi Alina,
Thanks for the Kilij pics! I think the Kilij has to be one of my favorite curved blades  . To add to the collection of pics, here is one that was/is offered by Lion Gate A&A.
Cheers, |
Now that is a beautiful sword!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | Yep, tha'ts how the chains are done on the HungaroPolish blades, too...
I can't afford that sucker, but WOW. Some nice images, for certain. |
Well most of the scholars I've read on Eastern European/Middle Eastern stuff are Islamicists. This of course means that everything resembling what is in the Middle East came from Islamic sources because Islam is "culturally superior." I can't honestly tell you who borrowed what from whom but I think that Poland and Hungary both were primary routes into Europe for Eurasian steppe nomads. In addition, they were also two regions in extensive contact with the Muslim world (moreso Hungary than Poland). Dr. David Nicolle seems to postulate that Islamic saber design came from the steppe peoples who invaded via Persia after the 11th century AD. I'm not an expert on this theory but that allows us at least two ways for Hungary and Poland to have similar developments:
1) Steppe ----->Islam------>Poland/Hungary
2) Steppe ----->Poland/Hungary independent development.
Now of course the Eastern Europeans themselves will likely be nationalistic and argue theory #2. But I'm not qualified enough to step in and say what's what. For me I'll just store it in my memory bank that they are in fact similar for some unknown reason.
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Stefan Toivonen
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Lovely swords. I really like the "baddawi" hilted swords with a slight curve like the Hungarian one. Really started to like that style when I some weeks ago saw a thread on SFI about a contemporary arab saif.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46439
 Attachment: 29.5 KB
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Nate C. wrote: | Hi Alina,
Thanks for the Kilij pics! I think the Kilij has to be one of my favorite curved blades . To add to the collection of pics, here is one that was/is offered by Lion Gate A&A.
Cheers, |
Now that is a beautiful sword! |
Isn't it though? I especially like the way the gilding was done. It has(had) just enough to be elegant without being gaudy. If it weren't for the fact that it was well out of my price range, I'd be able to give you much better pictures  . One thing that's cool about it is the patterns are on the spine of the blade too.
Cheers,
Attachment: 64.72 KB
A shot of the blade's spine
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah the Arab saif has long been one of my favorites. Now, I'm preferring those antiques that I showed with the baddawi hilt and the very slight curve.
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Alina Boyden
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 20 Feb, 2005 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ooo, now that is nice! While I'm a Euro fan at heart, I can't help lusting after some of these gorgeous middle eastern sabers!
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Ooo, now that is nice! While I'm a Euro fan at heart, I can't help lusting after some of these gorgeous middle eastern sabers! |
I'm European at heart too but the mysteries of the orient tug at me from time to time.
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Alina Boyden
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Great thread Alina. How've you been?
Check out this Ottoman kilic/shamshir:
The graceful shamshir-like curve is, to my eye, complemented by the small yelman. I wonder how that thing handles...
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Winston wrote: | Great thread Alina. How've you been?
Check out this Ottoman kilic/shamshir:
The graceful shamshir-like curve is, to my eye, complemented by the small yelman. I wonder how that thing handles... |
Andrew! I've missed you. I've been well, thanks. I won that topkapi museum book I posted the link to earlier so that makes me even happier. Gorgeous Ottoman shamshir you posted! It is a bit too curved for my tastes but I think the form is interesting. It looks like a shamshir but has the sharpened false edge like a kilij.
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 7:17 am Post subject: |
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It's kinda complicated: The Poles' arms were always along generally western lines, with back and forth to the Baltic stuff -- you won't find pukelhelms in France, whereas teh Hungarians had sabres from way, way back (and even more complex, had large numbers of Muslim troops until the Angevins took over and kicked out everybody who wasn't a latin christian). I agree that curved swords only reach the middle east during the Crusading era -- the artwork is very clear on the shift from broad, straight blades to curved ones. On the other hand, during the period when the Poles and Hungarians are both under Ottoman and Persian influence, adaptations occur that get very weird. For instance, the Poles develop the karabela (possibly the world's best sabre design) and thumbring hussar sabres, the Croats and Germans take the sabre from the Hungarians and Poles and turn it into the Dusagge, with much different characteristics, and the Hungarians, having gotten sick of getting the shaft from the Austrians, take the Ottoman and Persian designs as a fashion statement, and mix it with baroque design.
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | | It's kinda complicated: The Poles' arms were always along generally western lines, with back and forth to the Baltic stuff -- you won't find pukelhelms in France, whereas teh Hungarians had sabres from way, way back (and even more complex, had large numbers of Muslim troops until the Angevins took over and kicked out everybody who wasn't a latin christian). I agree that curved swords only reach the middle east during the Crusading era -- the artwork is very clear on the shift from broad, straight blades to curved ones. On the other hand, during the period when the Poles and Hungarians are both under Ottoman and Persian influence, adaptations occur that get very weird. For instance, the Poles develop the karabela (possibly the world's best sabre design) and thumbring hussar sabres, the Croats and Germans take the sabre from the Hungarians and Poles and turn it into the Dusagge, with much different characteristics, and the Hungarians, having gotten sick of getting the shaft from the Austrians, take the Ottoman and Persian designs as a fashion statement, and mix it with baroque design. |
I saw a picture of the karabela and it looks almost exactly like Islamic designs. In fact one of the first pictures I showed bears a strong resemblance to the karabela I looked at.
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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To my eye, nothing you've posted yet looks like a karabela... though the blade on the last one with the scentstopper pommel looks *very* Euro to me. But since we're coming at them from opposite angles, perhaps the interesting thing is that we're basically not surprising each other.
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | | To my eye, nothing you've posted yet looks like a karabela... though the blade on the last one with the scentstopper pommel looks *very* Euro to me. But since we're coming at them from opposite angles, perhaps the interesting thing is that we're basically not surprising each other. |
Could you post some karabela pictures here? I don't think it would be off topic and it would give me the chance to compare since I don't have the Eastern Euro sources immediately available to me.
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | Andrew Winston wrote: | Great thread Alina. How've you been?
The graceful shamshir-like curve is, to my eye, complemented by the small yelman. I wonder how that thing handles... |
Andrew! I've missed you. I've been well, thanks. I won that topkapi museum book I posted the link to earlier so that makes me even happier. Gorgeous Ottoman shamshir you posted! It is a bit too curved for my tastes but I think the form is interesting. It looks like a shamshir but has the sharpened false edge like a kilij. |
I was wondering where you've been hanging out.
I don't spend much time on the forums lately (with the exception of the eewrs). This board is outstanding, but I've usually little to add unless an "ethnographic" thread like this pops up. Professional and family commitments are clashing with some writing and a museum project. Not enough time in the day.
Nice grab on that Topkapi book. I've been on the prowl for it for some time. I'd also like to pick up Elgood's The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries, but even the copies on Amazon approach $300. I did, however, just get his recent book on Indian weapons, and highly recommend it. I haven't had the time to read it completely, but it is typically beautiful, well written and painstakingly researched. He's a good guy, too. If Manoucher's book gets published, we may soon be wallowing in previously unpublished primary research.
That kilic/shamshir was posted by Charles Suanders on the eewrs for identification recently. I thought you might like it as it's unusual.
Nice to talk with you again.
Best regards,
Andrew
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Andrew Winston
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | Russ Mitchell wrote: | | To my eye, nothing you've posted yet looks like a karabela... though the blade on the last one with the scentstopper pommel looks *very* Euro to me. But since we're coming at them from opposite angles, perhaps the interesting thing is that we're basically not surprising each other. |
Could you post some karabela pictures here? I don't think it would be off topic and it would give me the chance to compare since I don't have the Eastern Euro sources immediately available to me. |
Here's some recent threads from the eewrs that might interest you:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...t=karabela
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...t=karabela
(Nathan and Patrick, if linking of threads from other boards violates policy or is unwelcome, please delete my post and accept my apologies).
"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
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Gordon Frye
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 22 Feb, 2005 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Andrew! Picture #21 on the second thread you linked to was especially meaningful to me because I held an antique of those that looked almost exactly the same and was in perfect condition. It was by far the nicest sword I've ever held. The balance was amazing, the grip was a bit thick but was comfortable, and it had the property of feeling weightless while still giving the impression of blade presence. Hard to describe. I really, really, wanted it but I didn't have 1200 dollars.
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This is a standard topic