Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Pommel weights? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: Pommel weights?         Reply with quote

What did pommels weight in the old days? I see fantasy novels with "And the sword had a Diamond for a pommel" And all I can think is "Diamonds don't weight XYZ and would make a crappy pommel!"

What was the weight of the pommel say, in relation to the weight of the sword? (IE, whole sword is X, sword without pommel is Y, Pommel is Z. Pommel = ABC % of total weight.)

Anyone have any good stats for this?

Oh, let's stick to cutting swords unless we have a good reason not to.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Jason Dingledine




Location: Aurora, Ohio
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 219

PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Pommel weights?         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
What did pommels weight in the old days? I see fantasy novels with "And the sword had a Diamond for a pommel" And all I can think is "Diamonds don't weight XYZ and would make a crappy pommel!"

What was the weight of the pommel say, in relation to the weight of the sword? (IE, whole sword is X, sword without pommel is Y, Pommel is Z. Pommel = ABC % of total weight.)

Anyone have any good stats for this?

Oh, let's stick to cutting swords unless we have a good reason not to.


Unfortunately, it doesn't work out this way.

Two swords could have the exact same static measurements of length, weight, etc. and be completely different. A different pommel weight would be necessary for each of them. Plus, you can adjust the weight on one specific sword to give you different characteristics.

While there may be an "optimum" weight for a particular sword, it won't exist in a vacuum on it's own. Even adjusting the shape of the pommel can affect the needed weight, and the guard mass to a much smaller degree.

Jason Dingledine
View user's profile Send private message
George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
Joined: 16 May 2005

Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Facinating. Do you have any good resources for looking this matter up? What can we say for say, an adverage?

But to be honest, I was rather looking for information on existing swords...

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
What can we say for say, an adverage?


Unless you can find an "average" sword, you won't be able to answer that question. Happy You'lll have to define average. Swords will vary widely by intended use (ie. cut, thrust, or degrees of both), blade type, and length and other factors.

Also, it's not just weight that's important for pommels, it's shape, and therefore mass distribution. Two pommels of the exact same weight but different shapes can affect balance, depending on how the mass distribution changes.

Since sword sizes, shapes, and intended purposes create such a wide variety of weapons, there's no one-size-fits-all ideal pommel weight.

There are some spotlight topics that deal with balance and hilt components:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3189

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3154

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 813

PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug, 2005 3:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know that there was a thread a while back (might be almost a year ago, now) in which Peter Johnsson commented that he has an adjustable pommel dohicky that he uses for trying out various measurements (I think it is in the link that Chad gave you tha ends 3189). What he said in there, and it seems to be true for a lot of things with swords, is that you have to just go with trial and error.

So, if you put a diamond pommel on a sword and it balanced/handled the way you want, it would be perfectly doable. Of course, I would want to strap it to the sword without doing all of the work of mounting it first, in order to see if such a pommel were worth the effort involved.

There was a post here as well about swords with rock crystal pommels. I would think that they would be similar, at least to some extent, to a diamond pommel.

-Grey

P.S. give me a moment, and I will do a search for that post.

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 813

PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Found it!

There are links to a couple other posts within this one, but I figured I'd let you follow those if you want, and not worry about repeating them here.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3101

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Angus Trim




Location: Seattle area
Joined: 26 Aug 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug, 2005 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't see any reason why a crystal pommel wouldn't work in certain types of swords. Particularly rigid swords, with thick forte's and tangs. If the blade is properly balanced to start with, most of the shock waves will go towards the tip. If the sword received enough resistance, yeah, you'll get some feedback into the hilt no matter how well balanced the blade.....

And yes, the blade.......

Its been a while since this has been mentioned on either SFI or here............

Most of the work of balancing a sword is done with the blade and tang. Properly tapered, both distal and profile, will make for a blade that already feels like a sword in the hand, handling with the tang before mounting.

Many, many historical swords start real thick at the base, and distal taper quickly to start with, slower as it goes towards the tip.......This is what I call a concave distal taper.....

This accomplishes several things, one of which is that the forte is strong, and the cutting area can be real good for cutting. A blade like this is also more "versatile" for mounting purposes. Its much harder to throw off the "harmonics" on a blade like this, than it is for a thinner crossection blade.

This allows the cutler more freedom on how to mount the blade. You can go light {pommel weight}, and get a lot of feel for where the tip {and rest of the blade is}, or you can sacrifice some of this, and let aesthetics rule more without screwing up the finished sword. The dynamic balance still should be within acceptable parameters..........

For a long time now, us swordmaking types have pretty much allowed that the pommel "tuned" the finished sword. In some cases that's true, but as we've learned, its now an oversimplification. Has been for two or three years now, just no one has bothered to correct the public view of this........Of course that too is a bit of a misnomer, its not as if someone is actually hiding anything, its that everyone is a bit too busy to keep the "state of the art" up to snuff on the forums these days.....

Its no secret that the blade is the key to balance. But, as time goes on, it becomes more obvious that subtle little things can make a tremendous difference in the versatility of mounting a blade into a finished sword.......

swords are fun
View user's profile Send private message
Risto Rautiainen




Location: Kontiolahti, Finland
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 176

PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug, 2005 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good post Mr. Trim. We just had an interesting thingy with a cheapo basket hilt from Fabri Armorum that reflects all that you said above. Well okay, the basket has something to do with it but anyway. My friend ordered this baskethilt with a few modifications to it. He specified length, maximum weight and the point of balance. All the specs were met but the sword felt heavy and dead in the hand. As the pommel was threaded, we of course wanted to see how was the construction otherwise and disassembled the hilt. As soon as we got the pommel off I noticed it was a whole new sword. It felt great. The point of balance moved only about an inch towards the tip and probably because of the basket the balance and the feel of the blade was improved a lot.

Just my two squirrel pelts...
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Pommel weights?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum