[Risto Rautiainen]

Yay! Happy face!

So I needed a training dagger to accompany my training longsword and I thought why not make one. The result is not quite what I had planned for but I'm still happy. I wanted a triangular cross section rondel so I asked a smith I knew if he could make a triangularly shaped spike for me. Well I got one. Ridiculously Cheap. The Thing had almost no sign of tang and was not the most uniform object. It's some sort of spring steel, although it's not heat treated just annealed for the purpose of stock removal. And there was a lot of it. I still can't believe I didn't get any complaints from my neighbors from grinding with a bench grinder for hours on our apartment balcony. Shaping the tang was a lot of work. And now I understand why many companies resort to cast steel fittings. The labour these things require without proper power tools is quite a lot. The handle is some sort of hardwood I had lying around. I still need to cut the blade a bit down cos it's 5 cm too long and not too safe yet. Maybe I'll make a sheath for it. Well here's the stats.

Length: 42 cm (16,54")
Handle length: 10,5 cm (4,134")
Blade length: 30 cm (11,81")
Blade width at the base: 1,7 cm (0,663")
Blade thickness at the base: 1,2 cm (0.47")
Diameter of rondels: 4,2 cm (1,65")
Thickness of rondels: 0,5 cm (0,2")
POB: ~1cm from rondel. (~0.4")
Haven't weighed it yet.

I took some quick pics, from the sides you can see almost none of the horrible mistakes I made

[Sean Flynt]

That looks fantastic! I think you need to make a wooden version and train with that instead, leaving this piece exactly as-is. I'm both inspired and reluctant to press ahead with my own (pitiful) rondel project. Tell me about the pommel nut....Did you thread the tang and modify an off-the-shelf threaded nut (with peening as the final step) or create an unthreaded nut from scratch and just peen the tang?

[Martin Wallgren]

Great feat, man !!!

realy like it!!!

[Joe Fults]

Very impressive effort.

[Bill Grandy]

Very nice, Risto! I particularly am impressed with the sculpting you did of the rondels. Was this your first blade project?

[Risto Rautiainen]

Thanks for the kind comments. This was my first short blade project. Earlier I have made a one "normandish" sword, one round pommel and re-hilted some swords.

Sean: I had a wooden version and then I lost it. Better makea training dagger you certainly will not loose! I have to admit that I have thought of leaving it as-it-is. The length of this beast is quite intimidating, but if the ideal length for a rondel is such that the blade extends to the elbow, then this one is about 2" too long for me. Besides the tip is not quite straight for the last 2" so I could correct that by cutting it down. The nut is not threaded to place as I don't have proper equipment to make threads on the tang (which is by the way monsterly thick). The nut is modified from an 8mm off-the-shelf nut. Smaller would have sufficed but I couldn't be bothered to make that 7mm thick tang anymore smaller. If I had known what trouble I had to go to peen that *stard, (this involved sneaking to the university's physics lab, but no more of that...) I would have made it smaller. If I can find the pic of the blank where I started, I'll post it.

[Martin Wallgren]

As for training I would leave it like it is and grab the nearest broom and make a bunch of sticks out of it the same length as the dagger. Dont blunt a beutiful peace like that!

[Bill Grandy]

[Bill Duncan]

Wow! now that is nice mate!
I have been on the fence about starting a Rondel project for quite a while now but I just jumped off and will start serious efforts to make mine.
Dunc

[Risto Rautiainen]

Now I'm beginning to blush... I was totally inspired by some awesome examples people have posted here on the forum. I'm more than glad if my version "pushes people off the edge" to make one on their own. The definition for the proper dagger length comes from Vadi. I haven't read the description my self (shame on me, as we at SESH, Lappeenranta, study Fiore and Vadi) but that's only a matter of time. I heard it the first time on the ARMA forum.

I just have to post a link to the coolest rondel ever. The inscription and everything is just awesome, this one pushed me over the edge:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/ruhtinas/blades/holbdag.html

[Bill Grandy]

[Sean Flynt]

[Aaron Schnatterly]

That's a very nice piece, Risto! Really turned out nice.

I particularly like the work you did on the rondels - the faceted hollow grinding adds a major impact to the aesthetics of the piece.

I hear you about the concerns of using these tools in proximity to your neighbors. Fortunately, my personal shop and the metal shop that my friend has are both somewhat out in the country, so I can get away with more noise with less concern. Anymore, my neighbors just kind of shrug... "He's at it again..." I spent about 3 solid 10-hour days with dremels, chisels, hammers, and a bench grinder a month ago. I have a pretty cool neighbor, though - if he's upset, it's 'cause I don't have the stereo turned up loud enough.

[Peter Johnsson]

Good work Risto!

By all means, do *not* shorten the blade or blunt it. That wold be a real shame.
It is perfect this way, even if there are slight unevenesses as you say (can´t see that i the pics).
Nice combination of elegance and brutish violence in the design. Perfect 15th C character in that respect ;-)

Take Vadis comments with a grain of salt, I would say.
There are so many different lengths of surviving daggers.
I think there are to few contemporary made ones who are obscenely long....

Keep up the good work. I am curious to see what comes next :-)

[Jean Thibodeau]

Risto;

Well now you have done it: Now I want my own Roundel dagger.

Very nice work the only thing I would change would be having the blade heat treated " before " putting it together.

For a training tool your only mistake was making it too good: Would be a shame to blunt it and even then I wouldn't want to face someone holding it except for extremely controlled half speed training. ( Just an opinion that I can't support by personal experience. )

Not just well put together but very attractive design.

[Alexander Hinman]

Quite a beautiful piece of work, and heat treating the blade... Well, the pyramidal spike... before attaching the furniture would have been better, and it'd definitely be a shame to blunt or shorten this lovely weapon.

I am curious how well this thing could (when properly tempered) take apart maille.

In any case, I'd certainly like to have a weapon that attractive as a sidearm. Bravo!

[Jonathon Janusz]

Beautiful. Leave it just as is. As others have said, it would be a shame to do otherwise. I would go with that broom handle waster plan myself.

[Jean Thibodeau]

The A & A Roundel Dagger looks a lot like Risto's: Some family resemblance with the guard and pommel guard.

The only thing is deciding to buy it as is or go the " custom " route ? I'm thinking thicker blade like Risto's with a strong distal taper and maybe a bit longer 14" to 17" with a slightly wider blade than their standard model to keep things in proportion.

http://www.arms-n-armor.com/dagg110.html

Risto I don't want to highjack your topic but your Roundel looks good next to the A & A one and you can take that as a compliment as I am a big fan of A & A.

A general discussion of Roundel Daggers would seem to me to be a good way to continue your topic.

[Bob Burns]

Hi Risto,

Congratulations! That is truly a beautiful piece you have made, you've got a talent!

Bob

[Risto Rautiainen]

Jean: To be completely honest, the A&A rondel is where I got the idea for the faceted surfaces. I went through tons of pics of antique and contemporary pieces and picked up things I like.

The reason I didn't heat treat it was simple, I don't have the equipment and I didn't have the patience to send it anywhere for it. I believe it will be more than tough enough for any use it will get. I think it was hardened some as it was let air cool and it was not properly annealed. The way I would blunt it, if it ever came to that, would be the same as you blunt practice rapiers. First put a 9mm shell over the somewhat dulled point and then this sort of rubber blunt over the whole package. This way I wouldn't have to blunt it too much. I do realize there is a wide variety of lengths in rondel daggers, but as we use Fiore's and Vadi's system I believe what they recommend, would work best within their systems. I AM growing to be more and more reluctant to shorten it... I've always liked the way Mr. Windsor put it concerning longswords: "If you love it and want to play with it all the time, you will spend more time practising." I think it applies to all practice weapons.