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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Addison,
Here's my review of my Gjermundbu based helm: http://www.myArmoury.com/review_mr_vhelm.html
This isn't a germanic or saxon helm as it is the only definitively indentified "viking" helm.
Unless you're willing to spend the extra money having a helm like this commisioned I'd avoid it. Nearly all of the mass-produced ones I've seen are quite frankly ridiculous in shape and proportion. I don't mean to sound harsh with that comment because, afterall, you get what you pay for. They are, however, completely off in tems of shape and proportion. Albion used to offer a fairly decent Indian made example. A check of their website will confirm if they still offer it. If you can't afford any more that $150.00 I'd avoid the spectacle helm at first. A fairly decent conical/nasal helm can be obtained for this kind of money. This design fits within your framework and you'll be much happier, and you'll look better with the end result. You can always upgrade later on.
There really isn't much concrete evidence to support the use of lamellar armour by the nordic peoples. "Viking" reenactors often use the excuse of the vikings having contact with the slavic peoples as a basis for the use of lamellar, but that's a bit of a strecch IMHO. Splinted vambraces and greaves were known to have been worn during the migration era (the so-called "dark age"). Paul Mortimer is an authority on this era and he's just had a very nice set of these made up. The only set I've ever liked as a matter of fact.
Steel toed boots, or any other form of modern footwear shouldn't be considered. The boots I'm wearing are made by Revival Clothing and are cataloged as their medieval low boot. A good interpretation can be ruined very quickly by the inclusion of modern footwear. That's really one area that shouldn't be skrimped on.
I'd also suggest that you buy some of the Osprey books on this era. Now before all of the hardline living historians go for my throat let me clarify: Many of the Osprey books have issues in terms of accuracy in their illustrations so don't look for gospel truth in the fine details. What they will do is give you a good general view of what a migration era/viking warrior should look like.
While you're at it look up the Benty Grange helmet. This one was made from an iron framework covered in bone plates. This is one helm that's rarely been reproduced, and if you could afford to have it recreated it would set you apart from the rest of the crowd! I'm very intrigued by it.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: |
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The vikings, at least in norway, did not burn their dead. They rich ones are buried in grave mounds. There are accounts of burning, but practices might have varied.
Now the question is; Do you want to look like a viking, or a viking reenactor?
Two quite different things.
If you want to be a "realistic" viking, drop the braces, drop the lammelar, and go with maile instead.
Lames are, as far as I rember, found in ONCE in entire scandinavia... this does not keep them from beeing popular with reenactors though...
Spaulders are right out. They don't show up for another 400 years.
Shoes/boots:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SLIST2.HTM
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | While you're at it look up the Benty Grange helmet. This one was made from an iron framework covered in bone plates. This is one helm that's rarely been reproduced, and if you could afford to have it recreated it would set you apart from the rest of the crowd! I'm very intrigued by it. |
A neat webpage with some information and a recreation can be found HERE.
I hadn't thought of this piece in a LONG while, Patrick... now you have me thinking...  I believe the plates were horn, which wouldn't be horriffic to do... stinky, but not horriffic. I wouldn't touch this for under $1k, though... probably more... not with all the inlay work and such. However, an "inspired by" piece with less ornamentation wouldn't be at all bad...
A few people have commented here, Addison, about impulse vs. planning. Most of us have spent money on a piece only to later regret it, since it wasn't appropriate, made well-enough, didn't fit, was way out of proportion, or whatever. A "mistake" or two adds up to a tidy sum... offhand, I can think of a few hundred bucks I wish I had spent more wisely over the years - the figure is actually probably over $1000. Take that $1000, and I could have picked up half of Patrick's kit. I'd have much preferred that to those few items I've "lost" along the way.
One thing I briefly touched on, and Patrick hit pretty hard is on footwear. There is more to it than just looking the part... period footwear doesn't just look the part, it feels the part, too. What I mean by this is that some of the methods of fighting and such actually are much easier to do in period footwear. The smooth soles of these boots allow you to slip your steps instead of shuffle them. Armour will fit totally differently, too. Footwear is honestly one of the first things that stand out to an experienced "living history" person. If it's right, it literally provides a good foundation. If it's wrong, well... like I said... red dress at a funeral. You walk wrong, you feel wrong, you look wrong... There is a lot of your kit that I would start concentrating on first, but shoes/boots are far from the last.
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Shane Allee
Industry Professional
Location: South Bend, IN Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Some very good advice given so far. My two cents would be to focus on your research, and start slowly working on your soft kit. As some have already mentioned with the boots, all of your soft kit can really be an eye sore if not right. Your boots, clothing, cloak, broach, etc are all the base that you build out from in creating the "look." Also if you do the soft kit first, then add a spear and shield you have a completed look. There would have been many more individuals who only had their everyday items, plus a shield and spear. As time and money allows, you can then add the less common items like a helm, sword, and mail.
Too many people, myself included, will often times run out and spend all their money on one or two of the big items and then skimp on the other things. You almost always end up having to go back and do them again better, so it is best to get it right the first time. Also with wool, it can really add up in price, but it is worth it to spend the extra to get 100% and the right colors.
Shane
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 9:30 am Post subject: |
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A few months back, I got into a very long debate with Dan Howard about about Scandinavian lamellar, which I will not rehash here. The upshot was that lamellar was found in one Scandinavian Viking age site, I forget where, but "not in a Viking context", the implication being that it belonged to a non-Scandinavian mercenary of some description. Lamellar was used however after the Viking age.
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | A few months back, I got into a very long debate with Dan Howard about about Scandinavian lamellar, which I will not rehash here. The upshot was that lamellar was found in one Scandinavian Viking age site, I forget where, but "not in a Viking context", the implication being that it belonged to a non-Scandinavian mercenary of some description. Lamellar was used however after the Viking age. |
Heh.
What is a Viking, anyway?
Just a Scand out on a raid, right? :-)
I'd say the Rus, whom the Khazars fought for centuries on the Volga, were just as much "Viking" as their Norse cousins who raided Ireland.
Big German guys in long-ships, raiding wherever the seas and the rivers let them reach . . . .
:-)
I guess I am too much into this "hybrid cultures thing", where I feel that anything that existed anywhere in the "zone of cultural interaction" could end up anywhere else.
So if a fellow out a-Viking thought lamellar, worn by enemies or sold by merchants, was cool, he might take some home with him or wear it to conquer his new homeland, such as Kiev.
Of course, I always like to be a bit different and stand out in the crowd, so I'd probably be the one Viking on the ship wearing lamellar and end up marrying one of those cute Khazar girls . . . . . (grin)
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Soft-kit sounds good to me. Any site recommendations? I mostly have armor and sword/weapon sites bookmarked at this point...
I may also be able to have my sister work on some parts for me, if I can get patterns. I guess basic pants and shirt would be fine, get some period shoes somewhere (I believe that Patrick gave a link), and get a spearhead and shield. Then the maille, then the greaves/vambraces, and then the helmet.
As for chainmaille, I'll go with that. Spaulders, however much I may like them, are now off the list. I'm still up in the air about the helmet, but I'll worry about that later. Thanks!
I also just found this site for some Viking reenactors (hopefully they're not "reenacting" on the local towns  ) which lists their equiptment, which should be helpful.
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| John Cooksey wrote: | | Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | A few months back, I got into a very long debate with Dan Howard about about Scandinavian lamellar, which I will not rehash here. The upshot was that lamellar was found in one Scandinavian Viking age site, I forget where, but "not in a Viking context", the implication being that it belonged to a non-Scandinavian mercenary of some description. Lamellar was used however after the Viking age. |
Heh.
What is a Viking, anyway?
Just a Scand out on a raid, right? :-)
I'd say the Rus, whom the Khazars fought for centuries on the Volga, were just as much "Viking" as their Norse cousins who raided Ireland.
Big German guys in long-ships, raiding wherever the seas and the rivers let them reach . . . .
:-)
I guess I am too much into this "hybrid cultures thing", where I feel that anything that existed anywhere in the "zone of cultural interaction" could end up anywhere else.
So if a fellow out a-Viking thought lamellar, worn by enemies or sold by merchants, was cool, he might take some home with him or wear it to conquer his new homeland, such as Kiev.
Of course, I always like to be a bit different and stand out in the crowd, so I'd probably be the one Viking on the ship wearing lamellar and end up marrying one of those cute Khazar girls . . . . . (grin) |
Good point. 
My own personal definition is someone from Scandinavia (or of Scandinavian origin) from the period aproximately 790 AD to 1066 AD. After 1066 they stopped being Vikings and became Norwegians, Swedes and Danes.
Mind you I'm sure if you had told this to a Scandinavian in 1000, 1050 or even 1070, this would have been news to him.
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | ...I also just found this site for some Viking reenactors (hopefully they're not "reenacting" on the local towns ) which lists their equiptment, which should be helpful. |
Interesting that the site shows lamellar armour....
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Douglas S
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Addison:
Are you fighting SCA? If you are, then some plate may be needed, regardless of your period.
If not, then stick with a mail hauberk and helmet. This is maximum gear for a Viking, most fought in less.
These reeanactors do the Viking period as well as, better than anyone else:
http://regia.org/
And here are some pictures of reeanctors in action:
http://community.webshots.com/user/kimsiddorn
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Douglas S wrote: | ...These reeanactors do the Viking period as well as, better than anyone else:
http://regia.org/... |
Hmmm. My son-in-law (who lives in York) was involved with a viking reenactment group, and this may have been the one. Not sure though. He did say that the group was very particular.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Nope, not involved in SCA or anything, I just want the kit to "have" or for whatever personal, subconscious desire dictates that I need to buy these things...
Oh, and I did notice that the site had lamellar on it...bu I think I like maille better, after looking at their suit.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | ...I also just found this site for some Viking reenactors (hopefully they're not "reenacting" on the local towns ) which lists their equiptment, which should be helpful. |
I wouldn't look to Web sites or groups like that for accurate information. I'm not trying to knock their efforts at all but there a lot of issues present there and these are pretty common to "reenactment" groups. The lamellar armor pictured is theoretical at best. As has been already stated: the use of lamellar by "viking" warriors is an unsubstantiated theory at best that is widely embraced by those looking for something more than the standard mail byrnie, but that doesn't mean it's correct.
Another issue involves the extra safety gear commonly used by reenactment groups portraying this era. You'll notice leather gloves/gauntlets and leather vambrace type reinforcements being worn in several of the photos on this website. These are modern safety concessions that are perfectly understandable since we all need to show up for work on monday in one piece. However, and this is a big pet peeve of mine, I often see photos of reenactors wearing this stuff in books that concern the actual period not the reenactment hobby. I recently bought a book on the battle of Hastings that is heavily illustrated with photos of reenactors dressed in just this way. The book is also profuse with close-up shots of reenactment weapons that are being used as an illustration of a period weapon. It really irritates me when I see photos illustrating "proper" period armor and weapon design that pass this type of equipment off as accurate. If you're putting together a reference work on period equipment you need to use antiques or correctly designed replicas to illustrate your point, not modern safety gear. Just because you see it on a Web site doesn't mean it's accurate, and that applies to this Web site too.
Trying to gain an understanding of period equipment by using material like the stuff presented on that Website can give you a false impression of reality, and an inaccurate kit as well. I'm not saying that the members of that group are trying to pass themselves off as something they're not, only that we need to place what they're presenting in the proper context. In order to get a good idea of what was used in the period you need to concentrate most of your study around books and material that deals with period artwork and surviving artifacts.
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:10 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron wrote: | | I believe the plates were horn......... |
Oooops! You're absolutely right. I don't know why I said bone. I love that helmet.
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the correction, Patrick!
The helmet looks really nice, but I'm not sure where I could get any horn like that. Albion does still stock the Spectacle helm, but I may hold off on that for now, and start the "soft" kit instead, since I can get most of that made myself.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | Thanks for the correction, Patrick!
The helmet looks really nice, but I'm not sure where I could get any horn like that. Albion does still stock the Spectacle helm, but I may hold off on that for now, and start the "soft" kit instead, since I can get most of that made myself. |
Honestly, the soft kit is the best place to start, if you want a full-on kit. It's been my experience that proper armour fits, functions, and feels best over period clothing... and you will always need the clothes, won't always need the armour. Food for thought.
Horn is not too awful to work with - you put it in hot water, and it softens up. Cut it, form it, let it dry, polish it... just wear at least a dust mask, and damn, do it outside... it stinks. Burn hair, and you'll know the stink. I'm not sure what horn specifically that helm was made from... but I'd like to find out (and where I can get some)!
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Viking reenactment is one of the oldest forms of reenactment, which also means that a lot of "standards" where set before people knew better.
Viking is also more of a "lifestyle period" than medieval. A lot of people that are not your typical historians are attracted to the viking sterotype.
Thus, most viking reenactors prime reference is what other viking reenactors are wearing, not research. The combination results in stuff like the Lamelar, salv style baggy pants, and leather bracers become standard issue.
Lamelar is easier to make, and looks "cooler", than mail. Thus it becomes popular.
Easy as that.
"Viking" ends up beeing used as "freebooter"
The sagas term saracen corsairs as "Vikings"
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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hi been out of town all weekend and jsut got to read this thread.
always when starting a new era kit .... start with the soft kit, then move to the fighting or armour kit.
so you want viking? got a date?place?peoples? alot of this will determine what your kit will look like and what you really want in the end.
the best online place to start is here: http://www.larp.com/midgard/mbcs.htm i know its set for around the battle of hastings period but you cant go wrong with a wool tunic, wool chausis or pants and linen under garments. you jsut cant ehhehe.
as for reading books. check out Osprey's MEn at Arms series, elite series and warrior series. there look for Vikings, Viking Hersis, Saxon Viking and Norman, Anglo saxon Thegn and The Normans
where are you from? in real life. maybe i can find some local groups for you to contact or visit.
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'm from Midcoast Maine, and as for "Viking", I believe that we redefined what I want as a "Dark Age" warrior kit, to leave more room for interpretation. I'm pretty sure there aren't any local groups, but there may be some that I don't know about. I'm open to suggestions of all sorts, so keep them coming!
Oh, and I think I'll probably get a spear before a sword for this kit. I like this one by CAS Iberia (I know they're not the greatest quality-wise for swords, but I think if Patrick bought one, I'm justified  ). It's labelled "throwing spear head" but I don't believe them. They claim "The Nordic warrior frequently carried several light throwing spears into combat.", which I find doubtful for several reasons. Where would you carry the spears, you'd have to put down all but one to throw them because you have a shield in your other hand, plus you're disarming yourself and potentially giving the enemy a weapon.
Any, back to the point, I think this would be appropriate, and it looks nice.
A shield (either teardrop or round) may also be in order. Painting is fun!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Elling wrote: | | Lamelar is easier to make, and looks "cooler", than mail. |
Shut your mouth! 
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