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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject: Show Us Your 18th century swords!         Reply with quote

During a recent thread on Don's excellent Pillow/Sash Sword http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21992 it was tossed about that there are some of us who would like to see a thread with later period swords such as very late 17th century and 18th century swords. We don't see as much as we would like on M.A.com so after some bandying about, I am starting one. I thought it would be nice to see antiques and practical repros of swords from 1680 to 1790's.

Here are my first contributions; a nice fat bladed smallsword from the 1680's that I really enjoy and a custom Cut and Thrust modeled after a Dutch hanger from about the 1740's that I had made in the early 1990's by Sir Blackhand.



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inkothemgard!
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going to need a bigger boat Laughing Out Loud

A pair of ebony hafted 1788 types. The sabre lost part of its counterguard at some point. I collected these as a pair from another collector. The spadroon is quite a wicked sharp black beauty.


Earlier than that is a 1750ish hussar from possibly Scandinavia but the blade of German work. Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins puzzled a bit about this one but was inclined to think Scandinavia.





Between the two timelines is my first collected spadroon, a slotted hilt of the forth quarter of the 18th century.



An early compilation of sorts. The blade likely a bit later than the hilt which fits with the mid/late 18th century. It is a cast steel blade roughly the US pattern of the nco swords of the Rose examples.




A turn of the century spadroon possibly cutlered in America and some before/after work I had done in progress of adding silver back to the hilt parts. The scabbard has also been treated and quite supple once more (not shown as rejuvenated here but in other spadroon threads). the grip has soaked up a lot of natural oil as well.



One more for now, another 1788 type. This one from Wooley.


Did I mention I like spadroons? The earlier ones are in the center and shown in the pics above. You can see the scabbard took a lot of rich dark color in using Pecards leather dressing. Both the antique formula and the black and brown supplementary dressings. The Silver added to the decorated blade one is a pproduct named Silver Secret.. While meant for touching up plate, vigorous and many goes at it does produce a real silver skin. Bare brass and copper needs perseverance to get it really covered well.


Cheers

GC
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Roger Hooper




PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No originals, but here are two recreations.

A late 17th century continental military sword, a custom job by Arms and Armor. If you want to read more about this model, go Here -

DT5182 from Del Tin, a mid 18th century transitional rapier.



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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 11:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen,
I think I like the NCO compilation the best, I remember liking it last time I saw it as well.

Roger,
Love the Military sword. Fantastic! Being a lefty I apprieciate symetrical guards. And just so you know, Transition Rapiers are my favorite kind of sword. Probably why I like french infantry NCO swords and Officer swords. they are pretty much transition rapiers with smallsword hilts. I also have a custom Trans. Rapier that I will try to get pics of asap and post as well. Tell me all about the Del Tin. Whats the weight and balance like??

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Thom R.




PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

this is good - will force me to re -photo document my swords with my new better camera. mostly...... for 18th c. I have military swords, but as you guys know I have a few civilian swords too. I'll start off with a 1788 pattern British baskethilt



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Donald Dupuis




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 11:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Two hunting swords top one is 22 inches overall with ray skin grip the blade as old as it is is razor sharp.
The lower one is 27 inches long, the grip is made of horn panels with only one remaining, the blade is marked "harvey
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Donald Dupuis




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is an example from my shop, a steel hilt small sword with colichimard blade.
The hilt is from castings by "The Rifle Shoppe" It is a good reproduction of an early 18th century small sword.
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom,
I love that P1788 HC sword. I have always wanted one and yours is a very nice example.

I have a few 18th century swords still hanging around...

An English infantry hanger c.1750:







An English dragoon's basket hilted backsword c.1750:







An English hanger c.1790:





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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great Dragoon Sword Jonathan. I would love to see one of those brass hilted straight cavalry swords from the 1690s Marlborough era sometime. Maybe we will! Happy Here is my pieced hilt smallsword dated 1767. It has a 32 inch Solingen blade (not exactly small) which is engraved all the way to the tip. There are still traces of gold-wash in the engravings. When the sun hits, they light up nicely. It has a great balance and the last inch at the tip is still wicked sharp!


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inkothemgard!


Last edited by Morgan Butler on Mon 31 Jan, 2011 9:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Antique smallsword from appr. 1730:


http://www.myArmoury.com/bill_swor_ant_ss.html

Modern reproduction smallsword from Arms and Armor:


http://www.myArmoury.com/bill_swor_aa_loop.html

Antique blade mated to a modern hilt by Phoenix Metal Creations:


http://www.myArmoury.com/bill_swor_pmc_loop.html

And an antique schiavona. Hilt is likely early 18th century, whereas the blade may be mid-17th.



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Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill,
That 1730's weapon is great! Small swords from the first half of the 18th century are my favorite, I like how the pas de an's are still full and functional. And often the hollowground blades are wider than later in the century.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan Butler wrote:
That 1730's weapon is great! Small swords from the first half of the 18th century are my favorite, I like how the pas de an's are still full and functional. And often the hollowground blades are wider than later in the century.


I completely agree with you! Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Todd Salazar




PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A couple of new photos of my 1740s John Allan...



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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Todd Salazar wrote:
A couple of new photos of my 1740s John Allan...


I do love seeing that sword, Todd. I'm very jealous.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a schiavona, dating to the mid to late eighteenth century.


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Antique Type 2b Schiavona
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Original: Venetian, circa 1750-80


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Antique Type 2b Schiavona
Original: Venetian, circa 1750-80


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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 10:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan, Jonathan and Todd have shown us some nice military basket hilt swords. Sweet! (as they say). Most of my 18th cen. swords are light cut and thrusts and smallswords. Except for the Dutch hanger I showed earlier. The only heavy weight sword I have is a British Hanger. You would think its a very light sword but it is balanced like a cleaver and has a horseman sword feel to it, even though the blade is only about 30 inches. Interestingly, it has some talismanic writing on the sword that seems like a bit of alchemical and astrological symboligy. During the "age of reason" people were more willing to express there "esoteric" interests without as much fear of persecution.


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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan, 2011 11:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a M.A.com review of a European hanger by Vince Evans.

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_ve_hanger.html

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Bryan W.




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm a terrible photographer so I have no antique pictures (yet) but here are two of my reproductions from A&A.


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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan ,
Thats an interesting flamberge, tell me more about it. Also a very nice AA smallsword. Nice blackened hilt. I'm sure it handles great.
Earlier, Roger Hooper put up a pic of the Del Tin Transition Rapier (Pic below) which I have always been curious about. I asked for a review of it and he sent me a P.M. which he gave me permission to post here:

Hello Morgan -

I would have answered your question on that thread, but it had progressed far enough so that my answer would be off topic.

I have mixed feelings about the transitional rapier, DT5182. Part of it is that the hilt is not a good fit for my hand, which is broad and short fingered. Longer fingers might work better with this sword. The hilt design seems too long for me. The arms of the hilt length from guard to ecusson is 1.75 inches. I also find this hilt kind of slippery, especially around the ecusson. Wearing gloves solves some of these problems.

The dimensions for the rapier over at KOA are accurate. It has a good stilff blade. It doesn't handle like a smallsword (like the Arms and Armor version, which I highly recommend) It has a heavier presence, but is still quite maneueverable.

It is like most Del Tins - good, but it could have been a lot better. I'm sure that your custom rapier is of much higher quality.

Best Regards,

Roger Hooper


Interesting. I have an old schlaeger blade on a steel transition rapier hilt. It too is is built on a bit of an oversize scale. I have to hold it french style and not use the pas de an's at all. In my opinion a trans. rapier hilt should just be a little bigger than a smallsword hilt with a symetrical hilt that offers better hand protection. Like a military smallsword hilt.
As a matter of fact. Here are the pics of the Del-Tin Smallsword, which really looks to me like another transition rapier. Its the one with the brass hilt.



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Bryan W.




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Feb, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan Butler wrote:
Bryan ,
Thats an interesting flamberge, tell me more about it. Also a very nice AA smallsword. Nice blackened hilt. I'm sure it handles great.


Thanks Morgan. Both of those were A&A projects. The flamberge is an amalgam of two historical smallswords. There were several pieces of what I believe were english that I had seen with plates similar to this one dating from the mid to late 1700s if I recall, some without knuckle guards (an aesthetic style I've come to like recently). The flamberge styled blade as you know is rare but found on several pieces as well. Whether they were actually cut down rapier blades or crafted originally for small swords I'm not sure. I believe Stephen Fisher has some actually in his album on this very site. Regardless I basically asked Craig to combine the blade style with one of my favorite hilts and there you go. Craig wrote on the A&A site that the guard is italian though those weren't the pieces I based it off of. On review of some pictures there are several italian pieces that carry similar patterns as well (though far more ornate at times).

Both swords handle very well. The flamberge feels as if it has slightly more blade presence than the double loop hilt because the point of balance is about half an inch further out and the blade is slightly longer (30 inches vs 29) though both weigh in at a hair over one pound on my scale.
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